Team Control Rule

[Adam]

Got my book yesterday, and I noticed they seem to have reverted the Back Court rule to the way it was before they started messing with team control. However, they have not changed the TC rule at all, so now, by a strict reading of the rule, there are lots of violations that were not intended to by violations.

Such as a throw in that is tipped by A2, standing in the FC, into the BC before it's retrieved by A3. By 9-9-1, this should be a violation.

Am I missing something?

Originally Posted by Adam

Am I missing something?

Don't have the new book, could you post the new Back Court language?

[APG]

ART. 1

A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, or if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

[Adam]

Highlighted changes in red.

Originally Posted by Rule 9-9-1

A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, or if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

[JetMetFan]

Adam, take a look at NFHS 4-13-1 – the definition of frontcourt:

A team's frontcourt consists of that part of the court between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its basket and the inbounds part of the backboard.

...add in 4-35-2

When a player is touching the backcourt, out of bounds or the three-point line, the player is located in backcourt, out of bounds or inside the three-point line, respectively.

…and it clears up the throw-in problem. Of course an edit to the rule book would definitely make life easier but frontcourt – or backcourt for that matter – doesn’t appear to officially include the area outside the boundary lines.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Adam, take a look at NFHS 4-13-1 – the definition of frontcourt:



...add in 4-35-2



…and it clears up the throw-in problem. Of course an edit to the rule book would definitely make life easier but frontcourt – or backcourt for that matter – doesn’t appear to officially include the area outside the boundary lines.

Right, but that's not the problem. The problem is:

TC established: check, as soon as the throw in starts
FC established: check, as soon as A2 tips the ball (standing in the FC)
Last to touch in the FC before it goes into the BC: Check, A2's tip.
First to touch after it goes into the BC: Check, when A3 retrieves ball in BC.

By rule, this is a violation. By repeated expressed intent, it is not.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

TC established: check, as soon as the throw in starts
FC established: check, as soon as A2 tips the ball (standing in the FC)
Last to touch in the FC before it goes into the BC: Check, A2's tip.
First to touch after it goes into the BC: Check, when A3 retrieves ball in BC.
By rule, this is a violation. By repeated expressed intent, it is not.

... and also by past history. But how does a rookie know that?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

Right, but that's not the problem. The problem is:

TC established: check, as soon as the throw in starts
FC established: check, as soon as A2 tips the ball (standing in the FC)
Last to touch in the FC before it goes into the BC: Check, A2's tip.
First to touch after it goes into the BC: Check, when A3 retrieves ball in BC.

By rule, this is a violation. By repeated expressed intent, it is not.

Sorry I ignored some of the elements in my previous answer. Let’s try this:

4-12-2d
A team is in control of the ball when a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

4-42-5a
The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches or is legally touched by another player inbounds.

So when the ball is touched by A2 on the throw-in, the throw-in is over. If A2 didn’t gain control of the ball there’s no team control for the purpose of calling violations so if the ball rolls into the backcourt and A3 picks it up the play is legal. The TC rule on the throw-in only covers penalties applied to fouls.

I found this on the web from the NFHS’s 2011-12 rule interpretations. The scenario is slightly different but the essence is the same:

SITUATION 5: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt. RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2d; 9-9)

[Adam]

And the rule changed so that "player control in the front court" is no longer required. It was always a clunky way around it anyway. But, the fact is, relying on old interpretations and powerpoint presentations is a horrible way to get proper enforcement. As Billy notes, rookies aren't going to have access to those things online.

Further, veterans don't always pay attention, and some just read the rules to get updates. When they read this rule, they'll rightly consider this a violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

but frontcourt – or backcourt for that matter – doesn’t appear to officially include the area outside the boundary lines.

It never has. That's why 3-seconds doesn't apply during a throw-in, etc.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

So when the ball is touched by A2 on the throw-in, the throw-in is over.

Sure, the throwin is over, but TC hasn't ended (see 4-12-3).

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Sorry I ignored some of the elements in my previous answer. Let’s try this:

4-12-2d
A team is in control of the ball when a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

4-42-5a
The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches or is legally touched by another player inbounds.

So when the ball is touched by A2 on the throw-in, the throw-in is over. If A2 didn’t gain control of the ball there’s no team control for the purpose of calling violations so if the ball rolls into the backcourt and A3 picks it up the play is legal. The TC rule on the throw-in only covers penalties applied to fouls.

I found this on the web from the NFHS’s 2011-12 rule interpretations. The scenario is slightly different but the essence is the same:

SITUATION 5: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1’s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2’s hand and goes into Team A’s backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team A’s backcourt. RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player and team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2d; 9-9)

We need to distinguish between touching and controlling? A touch does not cause a BC Vio whereas Control would?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It never has. That's why 3-seconds doesn't apply during a throw-in, etc.




Sure, the throwin is over, but TC hasn't ended (see 4-12-3).

According to the interpretation TC for the purpose of calling a TC foul doesn’t end when a player on Team A tips the ball. However TC for the purpose of calling violations hasn’t started because neither team has established control inbounds.

Believe me, I know it’s convoluted but that’s what I found consistently in all of the online results.

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

We need to distinguish between touching and controlling? A touch does not cause a BC Vio whereas Control would?

In this scenario, yes. When the ball is touched inbounds Team A has to re-establish control for violations to come into play again.

[OKREF]

Doesn't the team control aspect on a throw in, (which was changed just a few years back), only really apply to fouls on the offense? We no longer shoot free throws, when at one time we did. A tipped ball on the throw in isn't possession, it just means that the throw in ended. If A2 touches the throw in and the ball goes into the backcourt, and A3 gains possession, the only thing I have is a 10 second count.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Doesn't the team control aspect on a throw in, (which was changed just a few years back), only really apply to fouls on the offense? We no longer shoot free throws, when at one time we did. A tipped ball on the throw in isn't possession, it just means that the throw in ended. If A2 touches the throw in and the ball goes into the backcourt, and A3 gains possession, the only thing I have is a 10 second count.

So team control continues after a throwin if a tipped pass by A1 (or B1 for that matter) goes into the backcourt. This is because tema control only ends with a dead ball, a shot, or change of posession, right?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Doesn't the team control aspect on a throw in, (which was changed just a few years back), only really apply to fouls on the offense? We no longer shoot free throws, when at one time we did. A tipped ball on the throw in isn't possession, it just means that the throw in ended. If A2 touches the throw in and the ball goes into the backcourt, and A3 gains possession, the only thing I have is a 10 second count.

Right.