What would you do?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

What better instruction than calling a violation? I am sure they would learn not to do that again.

Why are we treating this different then any other violation? And it is not ticky-tack, it is obvious.

This is the same age of kids that knows how to download files better then their parents and we think they cannot handle what not to do on a throw-in?

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why are we treating this different then any other violation? And it is not ticky-tack, it is obvious.

This is the same age of kids that knows how to download files better then their parents and we think they cannot handle what not to do on a throw-in?

Peace

I think you have to read the game to know. Some times they should know better, sometimes they're barely able to hold the ball. At those levels, you have to call the game to a level that they specific players in the game are ready for.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think you have to read the game to know. Some times they should know better, sometimes they're barely able to hold the ball. At those levels, you have to call the game to a level that they specific players in the game are ready for.

I do not disagree, but this is a basic rule. I do not think you need to treat this any different then other violations if obvious. If it is borderline I get maybe passing, but not if it is obvious. Then again I work almost none of these games so it is not a big deal to me. I just do not see why this is so special. When I worked these games I had no problem making this call. It usually did not happen again after a call.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then again I work almost none of these games so it is not a big deal to me. I just do not see why this is so special.

Since you don't work these games, you have no idea what goes on in them, especially early in the season. In my area, seventh graders in Catholic middle school play in what is known as a "junior varsity" league, which can include kids that have never played organized basketball before. In that first week of play, and often into subsequent weeks, after a score, the new offensive players will often look like a deer in the headlights, and will look to me, as the new trail, for guidance. I just wave to them and tell them take the ball out of bounds. Sometimes it's due to them waiting for the "designated official inbounder" on the team, who, at the time, may be on the bench. For kids who transition from playing basketball on a Little Tikes six foot basket in their back yard, to playing organized five on five basketball in front of a crowd, the rules can be very confusing. The coaches do the best job that they can in the couple of weeks before the season, but it can still be confusing for some kids, especially those kids on the end of the bench, who probably don't get a lot of reps in practice, but according to league rules, have to play in the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Since you don't work these games, you have no idea what goes on in them, especially early in the season. In my area, seventh graders in Catholic middle school play in what is known as a "junior varsity" league, which can include kids that have never played organized basketball before. In that first week of play, and often into subsequent weeks, after a score, the new offensive players will often look like a deer in the headlights, and will look to me, as the new trail, for guidance. I just wave to them and tell them take the ball out of bounds. Sometimes it's due to them waiting for the "designated official inbounder" on the team, who, at the time, may be on the bench. For kids who transition from playing basketball on a Little Tikes six foot basket in their back yard, to playing organized five on five basketball in front of a crowd, the rules can be very confusing. The coaches do the best job that they can in the couple of weeks before the season, but it can still be confusing for some kids, especially those kids on the end of the bench, who probably don't get a lot of reps in practice, but according to league rules, have to play in the game.

Actually Billy I have worked those games often over my career. I even did an IESA (the only state Elementary State Organization in the country) Sectional a few years ago. So yes I have worked these games and did so often. I just do not do them now and as a regular part of my schedule because of other opportunities I have gained over the years. And yes, I have called similar things in the past when the opportunity was there. I just do not think this is one of these "It is junior high....." crap that people love to say that should be so drastically different. It is a violation. Yes you see goofy stuff at that level, but I do not see why officials treat it like we have to teach them everything by stopping the game. I have worked football with much younger kids in some cases and we call everything that needs to be called and those rules are a lot more complicated. Basketball how hard is it to know the ball has to be throw-in out of bounds? Sounds simple to me.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually Billy I have worked those games often over my career ... I just do not do them now ... junior high ... stopping the game.

I already knew that, which is exactly why I used the present tense in my recent post.

It's not junior high, it's middle school, on top of that, it's low level (seventh grade, refereed to as middle school "junior varsity" here) middle school. And I can't speak for others who posted that a do-over might be warranted, but if I'm going with a do-over it will only be early in the season, and early in the game, and won't be afforded to the kids who appear to know what they're doing out there, just the confused, "deer in the headlights" kids.

We're "stopping" the game if we go with the violation (which I have no problem with), or going with a do-over. I'm not ignoring this play, I'm sounding the whistle, "stopping" the game, and going with either a violation, or a do-over. This play has to be addressed, either with a violation, as you suggest, and as I suggest, depending on the circumstance, or a do-over.

In the original post, not sounding the whistle, and not "stopping" the game, is simply not an option for me. On the other hand, if the kids are just standing around and looking confused, then I can, hopefully, use hand gestures, and some simple verbal directions, to get them to do it the right way in less than five (a very long five) seconds.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I already knew that, which is exactly why I used the present tense in my recent post.

It's not junior high, it's middle school, on top of that, it's low level (seventh grade, refereed to as middle school "junior varsity" here) middle school.

Sorry Billy, regardless of whether I agree with the rest of your position (I do), this part is just silly. 7th grade is 7th grade, whether you call it Jr. High, Middle School, or high school. Many places refer to it as Jr. High, many call it middle school. To quote the old Gordman's commercial, "IT'S THE SAME THING!"

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why are we treating this different then any other violation? And it is not ticky-tack, it is obvious.

This is the same age of kids that knows how to download files better then their parents and we think they cannot handle what not to do on a throw-in?

Peace

They may know how to operate an IPhone better than I can ... but many of them have managed to make the A-team, and after 3 weeks of practice still don't know they can't dribble with both hands, or they can't stop a dribble and then dribble again.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

They may know how to operate an IPhone better than I can ... but many of them have managed to make the A-team, and after 3 weeks of practice still don't know they can't dribble with both hands, or they can't stop a dribble and then dribble again.

That might be the case is some places, but not in the places that I am familiar (and I am not talking about Chicago area either). Basketball is life here. Kids learn to dribble as toddlers. Basketball is king and kids grow up doing very basic things. I just do not see why it would be hard to understand if you call a violation?

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

They may know how to operate an IPhone better than I can ... but many of them have managed to make the A-team, and after 3 weeks of practice still don't know they can't dribble with both hands, or they can't stop a dribble and then dribble again.

Wow, 7th grade basketball must be really bad where you are at.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Wow, 7th grade basketball must be really bad where you are at.

Absolutely.

I have worked travel ball with players this young and they do amazing things. There is always a kid that could out dribble many high school players and the ball is bigger then their head.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have worked travel ball with players this young and they do amazing things.

I have no idea what travel basketball is like in your area, but around these parts, travel basketball is a really big deal, with dozens, and dozens, of kids from the entire town trying out for about a dozen spots. The kids that make the team end up being the crème-de-la-crème, and are very, very talented.

Seventh graders on a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team, are those that did not make the "varsity" team, and are certainly not the crème-de-la-crème, and again, these are the deer in the headlights kids. This is why I had a slight problem with Adam's, "7th grade is 7th grade". They all aren't the same. If the seventh graders on our town travel team were to play the local Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team of seventh graders (remember the best seventh graders moved up to the "varsity"), the score would end up being about 112 to 6 (Believe me, I know, I've worked scrimmages). It may not be apples to oranges, but it's Delicious apples to Macintosh apples.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have no idea what travel basketball is like in your area, but around these parts, travel basketball is a really big deal, with dozens, and dozens, of kids from the entire town trying out for about a dozen spots. The kids that make the team end up being the crème-de-la-crème, and are very, very talented.

Seventh graders on a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team, are those that did not make the "varsity" team, and are certainly not the crème-de-la-crème, and again, these are the deer in the headlights kids. This is why I had a slight problem with Adam's, "7th grade is 7th grade". They all aren't the same. If the seventh graders on our town travel team were to play the local Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team of seventh graders (remember the best seventh graders moved up to the "varsity"), the score would end up being about 112 to 6 (Believe me, I know, I've worked scrimmages). It may not be apples to oranges, but it's Delicious apples to Macintosh apples.

Yep, some 7th graders are better than others. I never said otherwise. I only said whether you call their school a junior high or a middle school is completely irrelevant. What makes a difference is how much basketball they've played up to that point.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

What makes a difference is how much basketball they've played up to that point.

Bingo. Give the man a cigar. Keep in mind that sometimes the degree of experience is not completely controlled by the individual, but rather, the "system" that the individual participates in. Unlike the old adage, sometimes opportunity is persistent, and knocks several times, and sometimes it doesn't knock at all, it just passes right by your house.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have no idea what travel basketball is like in your area, but around these parts, travel basketball is a really big deal, with dozens, and dozens, of kids from the entire town trying out for about a dozen spots. The kids that make the team end up being the crème-de-la-crème, and are very, very talented.

Everyone has a travel team. And at that age just about anyone that wants to play can find a team somewhere.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Seventh graders on a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team, are those that did not make the "varsity" team, and are certainly not the crème-de-la-crème, and again, these are the deer in the headlights kids. This is why I had a slight problem with Adam's, "7th grade is 7th grade". They all aren't the same. If the seventh graders on our town travel team were to play the local Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team of seventh graders (remember the best seventh graders moved up to the "varsity"), the score would end up being about 112 to 6 (Believe me, I know, I've worked scrimmages). It may not be apples to oranges, but it's Delicious apples to Macintosh apples.

Billy like anything in life, there are always different levels. Not all high school players are at the same level of competence and I do not think many people decide to call the game that drastically different.

Peace