What would you do?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then again I work almost none of these games so it is not a big deal to me. I just do not see why this is so special.

Since you don't work these games, you have no idea what goes on in them, especially early in the season. In my area, seventh graders in Catholic middle school play in what is known as a "junior varsity" league, which can include kids that have never played organized basketball before. In that first week of play, and often into subsequent weeks, after a score, the new offensive players will often look like a deer in the headlights, and will look to me, as the new trail, for guidance. I just wave to them and tell them take the ball out of bounds. Sometimes it's due to them waiting for the "designated official inbounder" on the team, who, at the time, may be on the bench. For kids who transition from playing basketball on a Little Tikes six foot basket in their back yard, to playing organized five on five basketball in front of a crowd, the rules can be very confusing. The coaches do the best job that they can in the couple of weeks before the season, but it can still be confusing for some kids, especially those kids on the end of the bench, who probably don't get a lot of reps in practice, but according to league rules, have to play in the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Since you don't work these games, you have no idea what goes on in them, especially early in the season. In my area, seventh graders in Catholic middle school play in what is known as a "junior varsity" league, which can include kids that have never played organized basketball before. In that first week of play, and often into subsequent weeks, after a score, the new offensive players will often look like a deer in the headlights, and will look to me, as the new trail, for guidance. I just wave to them and tell them take the ball out of bounds. Sometimes it's due to them waiting for the "designated official inbounder" on the team, who, at the time, may be on the bench. For kids who transition from playing basketball on a Little Tikes six foot basket in their back yard, to playing organized five on five basketball in front of a crowd, the rules can be very confusing. The coaches do the best job that they can in the couple of weeks before the season, but it can still be confusing for some kids, especially those kids on the end of the bench, who probably don't get a lot of reps in practice, but according to league rules, have to play in the game.

Actually Billy I have worked those games often over my career. I even did an IESA (the only state Elementary State Organization in the country) Sectional a few years ago. So yes I have worked these games and did so often. I just do not do them now and as a regular part of my schedule because of other opportunities I have gained over the years. And yes, I have called similar things in the past when the opportunity was there. I just do not think this is one of these "It is junior high....." crap that people love to say that should be so drastically different. It is a violation. Yes you see goofy stuff at that level, but I do not see why officials treat it like we have to teach them everything by stopping the game. I have worked football with much younger kids in some cases and we call everything that needs to be called and those rules are a lot more complicated. Basketball how hard is it to know the ball has to be throw-in out of bounds? Sounds simple to me.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually Billy I have worked those games often over my career ... I just do not do them now ... junior high ... stopping the game.

I already knew that, which is exactly why I used the present tense in my recent post.

It's not junior high, it's middle school, on top of that, it's low level (seventh grade, refereed to as middle school "junior varsity" here) middle school. And I can't speak for others who posted that a do-over might be warranted, but if I'm going with a do-over it will only be early in the season, and early in the game, and won't be afforded to the kids who appear to know what they're doing out there, just the confused, "deer in the headlights" kids.

We're "stopping" the game if we go with the violation (which I have no problem with), or going with a do-over. I'm not ignoring this play, I'm sounding the whistle, "stopping" the game, and going with either a violation, or a do-over. This play has to be addressed, either with a violation, as you suggest, and as I suggest, depending on the circumstance, or a do-over.

In the original post, not sounding the whistle, and not "stopping" the game, is simply not an option for me. On the other hand, if the kids are just standing around and looking confused, then I can, hopefully, use hand gestures, and some simple verbal directions, to get them to do it the right way in less than five (a very long five) seconds.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I already knew that, which is exactly why I used the present tense in my recent post.

It's not junior high, it's middle school, on top of that, it's low level (seventh grade, refereed to as middle school "junior varsity" here) middle school.

Sorry Billy, regardless of whether I agree with the rest of your position (I do), this part is just silly. 7th grade is 7th grade, whether you call it Jr. High, Middle School, or high school. Many places refer to it as Jr. High, many call it middle school. To quote the old Gordman's commercial, "IT'S THE SAME THING!"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

Sorry Billy, regardless of whether I agree with the rest of your position (I do), this part is just silly. 7th grade is 7th grade, whether you call it Jr. High, Middle School, or high school. Many places refer to it as Jr. High, many call it middle school. To quote the old Gordman's commercial, "IT'S THE SAME THING!"

The school that I attended was called Edison Junior High School when I started 7th grade. Soon after I left high school, they moved the 6th-8th over the high school and they still call that (Town name) Jr/Sr High School. Not sure what the heck he is talking about? Never even referred to this age level as middle school. And I have enough sense to know it is the same thing, but never called it that way.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

7th grade is 7th grade ... Many places refer to it as Jr. High, many call it middle school.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The school that I attended was called Edison Junior High School when I started 7th grade ... to know it is the same thing.

It's not a big deal but I want to clear something up.

Adam is right, seventh grade is seventh grade. But, depending on the set up of the grade system in the school, and the makeup of the teams, some seventh graders can be much better prepared for organized basketball than other seventh graders.

It looks like JRutledge attended a junior school with grades similar to what I attended back in the 1960's, and used to teach at, and coach at, up until about twenty years ago. Junior high was grade seven, eight and nine.

Back then it was very difficult for a seventh grader to make a junior high team with eighth, and ninth, graders trying out. If there was a seventh grader on my junior high school team, and I don't recall more than one, or two, he was probably a very talented seventh grader.

Now, here in Connecticut, all ninth graders are in high school settings, no more junior high schools, instead we have middle schools of sixth, seventh, and eighth graders.

The seventh graders that I was referring to may, or may not, be anything like the seventh graders in the original post. The kids that I was talking about attend Catholic middle schools. These schools have a very competitive "varsity" teams that consist of mostly eighth graders, and talented seventh graders. The less talented seventh graders play on the "junior varsity" team, playing in a league that combines both competition, and instruction. If you're a seventh grader on a "junior varsity" team, then you probably are not very good, because, if you were, you would probably be on the "varsity" team.

These are the seventh graders that I was talking about, some of them playing organized, competitive, basketball for the first time, and often being confused about some of the simplest rules, especially with the pressure of fans, coaches, officials, a scoreboard, etc., especially in the first weeks of the season.

[Adam]

Semantics. And "varsity" is still a silly term for middle school basketball of any level.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It looks like JRutledge attended a junior school with grades similar to what I attended back in the 1960's, and used to teach at, and coach at, up until about twenty years ago. Junior high was grade seven, eight and nine.

OK, but this is not about what I attended over 20 years ago. The current school system calls the school that has 7th graders a Junior High.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Back then it was very difficult for a seventh grader to make a junior high team with eighth, and ninth, graders trying out. If there was a seventh grader on my junior high school team, and I don't recall more than one, or two, he was probably a very talented seventh grader.

I cannot speak for you. But most 7th graders are not competing against 9th graders in my experience. When I was that age there was a 7th grade team and an 8th grade team. Ninth graders were Freshman and had their own team at the separate high school building.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now, here in Connecticut, all ninth graders are in high school settings, no more junior high schools, instead we have middle schools of sixth, seventh, and eighth graders.

I attended Richardson Junior High as a 9th grader for a semester in the Dallas, Texas area and it was next door to Richardson Senior High which held 10th-12th graders. Not sure if that is still the case, but the 9th graders player on our own age group. We did not compete with lower levels in any sport as I remember it.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

These are the seventh graders that I was talking about, some of them playing organized, competitive, basketball for the first time, and often being confused about some of the simplest rules, especially in the first weeks of the season.

I am starting to understand why we have so many D1 and pro players that come from this state if that is the case. When I started officiating in 1996, 5th and 6th grade basketball was common for school programs. And that does not include the travel or rec. leagues kids might have played in before.

Peace