Thoughts? (video)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rooster

This is a weak foul to give to someone for her fifth foul ...

I fully understand the concept, of "When in Rome ...", but this idea of making sure that a player's fifth foul, especially a star player's fifth foul, is a "real' foul is just not part of my game. We have officials on my board, mostly veterans, trained under our former, retired, interpreter, who have this same philosophy, and I have no problem with such a philosophy, but this is never a part of my game. I do try to keep track of team fouls to prepare for the one and one, and double bonus, but I never try to keep track of individual fouls. If it's illegal contact, I charge the foul, if it's incidental contact, then I pass on the call, and I don't care if you're Joe Blow, or Wilt Chamberlain. They're too many cell phones, and digital cameras, out there now compared to thirty years ago, and I don't want to be put in a situation where I have to explain a "pass" because it was the star player.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I fully understand the concept, of "When in Rome ...", but this idea of making sure that a player's fifth foul, especially a star player's fifth foul, is a "real' foul is just not part of my game. We have officials on my board, mostly veterans, trained under our former, retired, interpreter, who have this same philosophy, and I have no problem with such a philosophy, but this is never a part of my game. I do try to keep track of team fouls to prepare for the one and one, and double bonus, but I never try to keep track of individual fouls. If it's illegal contact, I charge the foul, if it's incidental contact, then I pass on the call, and I don't care if you're Joe Blow, or Wilt Chamberlain. They're too many cell phones, and digital cameras, out there now compared to thirty years ago, and I don't want to be put in a situation where I have to explain a "pass" because it was the star player.

I don't know whether or not this player was a star player, and frankly don't care if she was. I'm with you on the idea of Joe Blow and Wilt. My point is simply that this was a weak foul to be the fifth, irrespective of who it was. If this was the beginning of the game and this call was made as part of GM and an attempt to "clean it up," then I'm all for it. There was contact, sure. But clearly the offensive player played through it and white paid a heavy price.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rooster

... this was a weak foul to be the fifth ...

Rooster: What you guys do in your little part of the chicken coop is fine with me. I never have a mental list of the players that have four fouls. I'm in the majority with most of the guys, but not all of the guys, on my local board on this. If you mean that you know that this player has four and it would be a shame to call this weak foul as his fifth, then we're going to have to disagree. I make my decisions based on illegal contact, and incidental contact, not on weak versus strong, or three versus four fouls.

On the other hand, if you mean that it would be a shame for a player, star, or otherwise, to foul out on a weak foul, with no prior knowledge of foul trouble by the official, then we can agree, but again, it not a matter of weak versus strong to me, it's a matter of illegal contact versus incidental contact.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I never have a mental list of the players that have four fouls. I'm in the majority with most of the guys, but not all of the guys, on my local board on this. If you mean that you know that this player has four and it would be a shame to call this weak foul as his fifth, then we're going to have to disagree. I make my decisions based on illegal contact, and incidental contact, not on weak versus strong, or three versus four fouls.

As you go up the ladder some would call this a matter of game awareness or, in the case of not knowing how many fouls certain players have, a lack of it. I hear it every year at camps: "Be aware of who has four fouls." As I've moved up I know I have a better idea of who has what, especially if I called one or two of the fouls on that player. Does it mean someone - star or otherwise - won't get dinged if they commit a foul? Of course not, but I'd like to think that foul wouldn't have been what I called to DQ someone.

An extra bit of background: that young lady happened to be her team's leading scorer and rebounder in that game (20/11) and had scored all of her team's points in overtime (either six or eight). I may not know how much she had for the game but I darn sure would've noticed she was scoring all her team's points in the OT. I'm not saying I would "cheat" and avoid giving her a foul she didn't deserve but if she's going to foul out you'd hope it would be a Stevie Wonder-type call anyone could see.

As I said earlier, the whole issue is compounded by the fact the guard on White got knocked down at the other end...a play which, interestingly enough, would've resulted in the big girl's fifth foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...On the other hand, if you mean that it would be a shame for a player, star, or otherwise, to foul out on a weak foul, with no prior knowledge of foul trouble by the official, then we can agree, but again, it not a matter of weak versus strong to me, it's a matter of illegal contact versus incidental contact.

In an NCAA basetball game, you foul the star player out on that call from the video, you're getting a personal phone call from your supervisor.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

As you go up the ladder some would call this a matter of game awareness or, in the case of not knowing how many fouls certain players have, a lack of it.

I've already been up the high school ladder, and I loved the view from up there. Now, at my age, it's, hopefully, going to be slow trip back down the ladder, and hopefully, I don't fall off the ladder.

I've always lived by this quote: "It pays to be nice to the people you meet on the way up, for they are the same people you meet on the way down."(Walter Winchell)

I've been nice to people on the way up. I hope that they're nice to me now that I'm on the way down.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In an NCAA basketball game, you foul the star player out on that call from the video, you're getting a personal phone call from your supervisor.

I was refereeing to officiating in general, not on that specific play, but your answer still makes me glad that I'm just a high school official. We seldom get any phone calls like this, in fact, it's usually us making the phone call to our assigner, usually to give him a heads up as to why we may have tossed a coach, or a player, if any phone calls are made at all. On my level, high school varsity, we would never get a phone call about a specific foul call, even if it fouled out the best player in that state. Pressure, and accountability. That's why you college guys make the big bucks, and you deserve them.

[johnny d]

Big bucks.......funny, real funny, you obviously haven't seen a D3 check in some time. Not exactly big bucks for those games.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Big bucks.......funny, real funny, you obviously haven't seen a D3 check in some time. Not exactly big bucks for those games.

I've never seen a D3 check, but it's got to be bigger than the $89.76 that I get for doing a high school game? And we don't get mileage. If we're lucky, we get a warm bottle of water at halftime. One bottle that we split, two ways, two, remember, we're the Land That Time Forgot.