Jump Ball - Movement Prior to Touch

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Our rules interpreter when I was trained recommended stating "Hold your spots around the circle" prior to the toss for a couple of reasons ... as a simple game administration technique. It is also the standard practice in my association.

By all means, when in Rome ...

But your interpreter is 100% wrong, leaving the circle, which is always legal, is not holding your spot around the circle, I don't care how he spins it. As backward as we are here in the Land of Steady Habits (two person games, black belts, etc.), no interpreter around these parts would suggest any such standard practice, individual officials, maybe, but as an interpreter suggested mechanic, no way, José.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By all means, when in Rome ...

But your interpreter is 100% wrong, leaving the circle, which is always legal, is not holding your spot around the circle, I don't care how he spins it. As backward as we are here in the Land of Steady Habits (two person games, black belts, etc.), no interpreter around these parts would suggest any such standard practice, individual officials, maybe, but as an interpreter suggested mechanic, no way, José.

I think, as was pointed out, that this is basically preventative officiating. It's also a recommendation, not a direction that must be followed. Basically, the interpreter who runs the training class for new officials mentioned this as a good game management technique to get the game started without a jump ball violation (which is always preferred) if there is a lot of movement around the circle when you are ready to get started.

If you have players shuffling around the circle or into occupied space before the jump, wouldn't you say something? How long are you going to wait for players to get situated? Hold your spots around the circle accomplishes the goal and technically speaking, your not saying how long they are to hold the spot. So after saying this, players get situated, official blows whistle and administers jump.

Also, I guess if you leave the circle (legally) then you are no longer around the circle and thus don't need to hold the spot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

A good game management technique.

No, it's a bad game management technique because it doesn't match the rules. It's like telling players not to "move" on a designated spot throwin, which is wrong because they can move their feet within a three foot wide area, and can move as far back as they can in five seconds. Or it's like telling high school players to let it "hit the rim" on a free throw, which is also wrong because they can legally move into the lane when the ball hits the backboard, which could become an issue if the ball hits the backboard first and then subsequently hits the rim, and the rebound, and an easy putback if it's by an offensive player, is taken by the player who didn't listen to the officials advice and moved into the lane when it hit the backboard, leaving the player who waited for it to hit the rim wondering why his opponent was allowed in the lane "early".

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I guess if you leave the circle (legally) then you are no longer around the circle and thus don't need to hold the spot.

Why put "legally" in parentheses? It's always legal to move away from the circle. It's never illegal to move away form the circle. And when a player is on the circle and leaves the circle he is not "holding his spot", no matter how you spin it. If one player follows your "hold your spot" advice and an opponent, knowing the correct rule, moves away early and gains an advantage, then that's just not fair, and as the player who didn't move watches his opponent go in for an easy layup and looks to you for help, then just what are you going to say to him? Sorry?

I have no problem with preventative officiating by talking to players, I'm just not going to say things to the players that are not factually correct.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why put "legally" in parentheses? It's always legal to move away from the circle. It's never illegal to move away form the circle.

I was under the impression that moving away from the circle into an occupied space would be illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

ART. 5 Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, nonjumpers
shall not:
a. Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder.
b. Take a position in any occupied space.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I was under the impression that moving away from the circle into an occupied space would be illegal.

That statement doesn't make sense to me.

If you are moving away from the circle, you can't be moving into an occupied spaced.

If you are moving into an occupied space, you are either moving onto the circle or around the circle.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I was under the impression that moving away from the circle into an occupied space would be illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

Yes you are. It is only illegal to move into an occupied space on the circle. Players can move as near to players off the circle as they want, short of contact. Spin it any way that you want, but a player is not holding his spot when he moves away from the circle.

Also. I'm not questioning your knowledge of this rule. It sounds like you understand this rule better than me, or many other officials. I'm questioning why you would instruct players to do something that is not factually correct. Sometimes it's better just to keep your mouth shut.

One good outcome of this discussion: I haven't "dissected" this rule in this manner since the institution of the alternating possession arrow. Like many officials, I figure that we're probably only going to have one jump ball a game, hopefully it will go well, if not, I hope that it's an obvious violation that's easy to call, if not, I hope that it's a subtle violation that nobody will care about, so I spend my time studying other parts of the rule book. Back when we had a dozen jump balls a game (dozens in a middle school girls game), I knew all the jump ball rules like the back of my hand. Thanks for giving me the incentive to review these rules in great detail.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Players can move as near to players off the circle as you want, short of contact.

Here's another one of my pet peeves: I've heard officials tell players, who are standing six feet off the jump ball circle, "You can't stand behind him". Stupid monkeys. Sometime it's better to just keep one's mouth shut. Remember, in regard to revealing one's ignorance, you can't quote silence.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's another one of my pet peeves: I've heard officials tell players, who are standing six feet off the jump ball circle, "You can't stand behind him". Stupid monkeys. Sometime it's better to just keep one's mouth shut. Remember, in regard to revealing one's ignorance, you can't quote silence.

I posted something a few months back about officials doing this and folks said they hadn't seen it. I'm glad I'm not as nutty as I thought.

Recently I've started asking partners why the do this...then we go look at the rule book together.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's another one of my pet peeves: I've heard officials tell players, who are standing six feet off the jump ball circle, "You can't stand behind him". Stupid monkeys. Sometime it's better to just keep one's mouth shut. Remember, in regard to revealing one's ignorance, you can't quote silence.

Can't say I have ever heard that one. If I were to hear that in a game, I would defiantly ask at half time why they felt the need to say something like that.