Partner support

[Rob1968]

I spent some time observing a big youth tourney last week, and doing some mentoring/evaluating. One circumstance seems worthy of discussion here:
Late in a HSBV game, leading coach questions one of the officials on a no-call/possible dbl dribble, which the official admitted he didn't have a great look. But, his comment to the coach didn't satisfy the coach, who continued to follow him from his bench area to the front of the scorer's table. The official finally, and without being overly stern, gave him the stop sign, and said, "Coach, that's enough. We're going to play ball."
The coach turned, to go towards his bench, and then said to the other official, "Well, can I talk to you?" That official was well aware of his partner's conversation, but chose to engage the coach for several sentences, regarding the same play.
It was obviously a "divide and conquer" attitude by the coach.
I talked to both officials after the game and told them that in that situation, the stop sign should be taken as coming from the crew, and the second official might better have avoided that conversation.
Thoughts?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

"Well, can I talk to you?"

"No, not about that play coach. We're moving on". And then move away from the coach, quickly, even if it temporarily takes you out of position.

[JRutledge]

I am not a fan of the stop sign. I would have said, no and kept it moving.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not a fan of the stop sign.

I'm not its biggest fan either, but sometimes, maybe not in this specific case, it's necessary. Plus, it's a visual clue to your partner (or partners outside of The Land Of Steady Habits) that this coach has been "warned", and it does show up on video of the game in case there's some type of question, or repercussion, at a later time.

I will often go a whole season without using it, but when I do, it's pretty effective.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not its biggest fan either, but sometimes it's necessary. Plus, it's a visual clue to your partner (or partners outside of The Land Of Steady Habits) that this coach has been "warned", and it does show up on video of the game in case there's some type of question, or repercussion, at a later time.

I will often go a whole season without using it, but when I do, it's pretty effective.

I do not think it is necessarily. I think it is for show mostly. The only reason I have used it is because particular assignors like to see it on tape. But I cannot think of many situations I used it is actually stopped anything. All it has done is lead to a certain T. People are so worried about showing up the coach (not sure why) and we advocate this silly application. And depending on your "features" not everything is scene the same. Just look at how things are seen as to who walks in a neighborhood at night. So I do not advocate that for everyone.

And specifically in this situation why do you need to give the stop sign? Just walk away and ignore. You know what the coach is doing, at least those that have been doing this awhile. Just do not give him a forum to speak, he will get the message.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just walk away and ignore.

JRutledge: You make a lot of good points, however (Note: I've moved away from the original post, into a more general area):

Ignoring, and walking away, especially in a packed, loud, gymnasium, in a game with a hectic pace, doesn't give your partner any clue that this coach "has just about passed that line in the sand, he's been warned, and if he mouths off again he's going to be joining our tea party." Without this visual clue to your partner, he may give this coach a little leeway that you never intended him to get (To yourself: "What? Why is he even talking to that bastard? That son of a bitch already got his final warning. C'mon partner, bang him." When you're forty feet away). Without the visual clue, you may have to wait for a timeout, intermission, etc., for you to get together with your partner to let him know that you've had enough and that you want the coach sent to his seat on the bench, or maybe even to the locker room, at his next indiscretion.

On the other hand, if you think that the coach hasn't reached that line in the sand, and that, maybe, he deserves another shot at you, or your partner, then ignoring, and walking away, is a great way to handle the situation. Most coaches will eventually mouth of again and then either you, or your partner, can take care of business without the need of any stop sign. It may be different in Rob1968's neck of the woods, but around here, we don't have to give any "official" warning to a coach before ringing him up.

But, on the other hand (Have I run out of hands yet?), most coaches hate being ignored, and in a some cases, ignoring may actually escalate the situation.

Regarding the video evidence. In thirty-two years of officiating I've never had anybody, athletic director, principal, evaluator, assignment commissioner, etc., questioning any of my infrequent technical fouls. I really don't need a video of a stop sign to back me up later on. But, of course, there's always a first time.

And remember, I'm not a big fan:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I will often go a whole season without using it, but when I do, it's pretty effective.

Bottom line. In the wise words of Sylvester Stewart, better known as Sly Stone, "Different strokes by different folks". Man, if I didn't have Rich looking over my shoulder, this would have been a great place to post a video, for either the Sly and the Family Stone reference, or to the Supremes reference in the title of my post. Maybe he's out watching fireworks, and he won't notice. Should I chance it?

[JRutledge]

Based on what I am reading, we are assuming a lot of things. We are assuming the partner clearly saw the first confrontation. We are assuming that the partner even knows what the coach is complaining about. And if all the coach said to the partner is, "Can I talk to you?" I would either say "no," or "later" or even "I am not discussing his play coach" or ignore if I was away of a previous interaction where my partner had enough. If the coach is not yelling at the top of their lungs and just being a jerk, I tend to ignore those coaches. All I am going to do is screw it up by responding in most situations. He is not going to like my answer and it will do nothing more than make the situation much worse as I do not placate coaches with BS. I tell them what I know and move on.

And the dynamic of this issue that I am talking about as I have done this 18 years, but I am a playoff official and in many cases well known in some circles and not known well in others. What that means is I can go into places and certain coaches know my background as a higher level official, because they have either seen me in tournaments they play in or in the post season which gives you more cache to have your words believed or respected. A lot of this is who you are and where you are. And because our games are assigned by assignors of conferences and tournaments, we often have to deal with their positions on how to handle things. And that also means that depending on whom the official is the coach has a complaint about, sometimes the assignors well make it clear they are not dealing with a newer guy or one of their more respected officials. And you say you have never had anyone question your Ts, well I have or have been asked to why a certain situation was T'd or why a certain situation was handled after the fact. It has never got me in trouble, but yes the circumstances have been up for debate or further review. It does not happen often, but it happen this past season and I did not even give a T, but was involved in the handling the situation afterwards and the coach seemed more upset with me then the guy that gave him the T. And I did what I had done 100 times previously when I was the non-T'ing official, but someone it did not go over well.

This is why I do not like the attitude that the "stop sign" gives the same message for all. I have been in many situations where I have made my point and no one knew I got in the coach's behind about their behavior and drew a clear line. My partner's knew and the coach knew. And usually we are not surprised as a crew who the azzhole coaches are or what they have done to other officials in previous games. It is not uncommon we as a crew have a plan before the game starts if that coach gets out of hand and how we will deal with them.

And that is why I said it matters what attributes you have like what race, gender, height, experience, athletic attributes you might be, just to name a few might things that could help you or hurt you if you are dealing with a coach that does not respect one of those attributes you might have. I worked with a couple of female officials just this summer and it did not matter what call my partner made, the male coaches were not having it. And those coaches did not come out and openly say, "I do not think she can officiate because she is a woman."

For me it does not work, so if ignoring a coach upsets them when I was not involved in a play, that is their issue, not mine.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

The official finally, and without being overly stern, gave him the stop sign, and said, "Coach, that's enough. We're going to play ball."
The coach turned, to go towards his bench, and then said to the other official, "Well, can I talk to you?" That official was well aware of his partner's conversation, but chose to engage the coach for several sentences, regarding the same play.

The stop sign here is non-verbal communication and if I'm the other official it should be a big hint.

Regardless of how big and/or loud the gym is if this is a two-person game and Official A is able to speak in a normal voice to Coach A, he/she is more than likely table side. That means I, as Official B, am not so I won't know exactly what they discussed. If I see the hand go up, however, I know whatever discussion they've had is done AND the coach needs to shut it down so I consider that a big help. If he/she tries to speak to me immediately after that -assuming they're not losing they're mind - I think the "we're not discussing that play, coach" answer is great.

[Nevadaref]

Why is either official discussing a non-called, possible violation with a coach?
There was no whistle, there certainly won't be one now, and one isn't coming.
This isn't a legitimate reason to have a discussion with a coach. Save that for a question about a rule, a weird situation, a possible correctable error situation, or when one of his players gets T'd.

Seriously, some of the things over which people have interaction with coaches is so trivial and so unnecessary. Why are they doing it at all?

[Toren]

give a bench warning in high school?

I find that although it's no where in the rule book, it sends a pretty clear statement that we as a crew are done with the coach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Toren

give a bench warning in high school?

I find that although it's no where in the rule book, it sends a pretty clear statement that we as a crew are done with the coach.

I don't do it for three reasons.

First, it's not supported by rule.

Second, it means nothing more than just a simple verbal warning. I just make sure I inform my partners that I've warned the coach so we don't give him multiple warnings.

Third, it perpetuates the idea that they are some how owed a warning before any technical foul is issued.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

It means nothing more than just a simple verbal warning. I just make sure I inform my partners that I've warned the coach so we don't give him multiple warnings.

The second part of your statement (above) is important. Informing your partner could be either verbally (timeout, intermission, etc., my preferred method), or visually (stop sign). Sometimes things go so quickly in a game that one might not have time to verbally inform one's partner, thus the option (not by rule) of the stop sign. On the other hand, a partner, distracted while talking to a player, might not see a stop sign.

Originally Posted by Adam

It perpetuates the idea that they are some how owed a warning before any technical foul is issued.

Good point. One that I don't believe that I've ever seen expressed here on the Forum. Great point.

[BigBaldGuy]

I am a huge fan of the stop sign at the high school and college level (I work women's basketball) and the stop sign and a verbal warning are usually required. As well as actually putting the warning in the book at your first opportunity. I think it gives the coach a chance (if they want to) to cool down with a warning as we are trying to defuse the situation without using a technical foul. I have also had coaches tell me thank you for not whacking me and just giving me a warning on that play...I lost my head for a moment. Some coaches are going to run right through the stop sign and get whacked...but at least I tried to bring them back down. Also, you must always notified your partners at the first opportunity that the coach has been warned.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigBaldGuy

You must always notify your partners at the first opportunity that the coach has been warned.

I hope that we all agree on that, no matter what type (oral, or visual) of "warning" is given.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigBaldGuy

I am a huge fan of the stop sign at the high school and college level (I work women's basketball) and the stop sign and a verbal warning are usually required. As well as actually putting the warning in the book at your first opportunity. I think it gives the coach a chance (if they want to) to cool down with a warning as we are trying to defuse the situation without using a technical foul. I have also had coaches tell me thank you for not whacking me and just giving me a warning on that play...I lost my head for a moment. Some coaches are going to run right through the stop sign and get whacked...but at least I tried to bring them back down. Also, you must always notified your partners at the first opportunity that the coach has been warned.

Your post illustrates that the coaches run the system in the leagues which you work. That's too bad. Poor behavior doesn't deserve a warning. It deserves to be penalized. A coach shouldn't be thanking an official for not getting T'd. A coach should be behaving in a manner that doesn't warrant one in the first place.
Sorry to say, but the inmates run the asylum where you are and you have sold out by taking the money and dealing with their garbage.
I guess that some people are happy doing that and others aren't.