Partner support

[Rob1968]

I spent some time observing a big youth tourney last week, and doing some mentoring/evaluating. One circumstance seems worthy of discussion here:
Late in a HSBV game, leading coach questions one of the officials on a no-call/possible dbl dribble, which the official admitted he didn't have a great look. But, his comment to the coach didn't satisfy the coach, who continued to follow him from his bench area to the front of the scorer's table. The official finally, and without being overly stern, gave him the stop sign, and said, "Coach, that's enough. We're going to play ball."
The coach turned, to go towards his bench, and then said to the other official, "Well, can I talk to you?" That official was well aware of his partner's conversation, but chose to engage the coach for several sentences, regarding the same play.
It was obviously a "divide and conquer" attitude by the coach.
I talked to both officials after the game and told them that in that situation, the stop sign should be taken as coming from the crew, and the second official might better have avoided that conversation.
Thoughts?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

"Well, can I talk to you?"

"No, not about that play coach. We're moving on". And then move away from the coach, quickly, even if it temporarily takes you out of position.

[JRutledge]

I am not a fan of the stop sign. I would have said, no and kept it moving.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not a fan of the stop sign.

I'm not its biggest fan either, but sometimes, maybe not in this specific case, it's necessary. Plus, it's a visual clue to your partner (or partners outside of The Land Of Steady Habits) that this coach has been "warned", and it does show up on video of the game in case there's some type of question, or repercussion, at a later time.

I will often go a whole season without using it, but when I do, it's pretty effective.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not its biggest fan either, but sometimes it's necessary. Plus, it's a visual clue to your partner (or partners outside of The Land Of Steady Habits) that this coach has been "warned", and it does show up on video of the game in case there's some type of question, or repercussion, at a later time.

I will often go a whole season without using it, but when I do, it's pretty effective.

I do not think it is necessarily. I think it is for show mostly. The only reason I have used it is because particular assignors like to see it on tape. But I cannot think of many situations I used it is actually stopped anything. All it has done is lead to a certain T. People are so worried about showing up the coach (not sure why) and we advocate this silly application. And depending on your "features" not everything is scene the same. Just look at how things are seen as to who walks in a neighborhood at night. So I do not advocate that for everyone.

And specifically in this situation why do you need to give the stop sign? Just walk away and ignore. You know what the coach is doing, at least those that have been doing this awhile. Just do not give him a forum to speak, he will get the message.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just walk away and ignore.

JRutledge: You make a lot of good points, however (Note: I've moved away from the original post, into a more general area):

Ignoring, and walking away, especially in a packed, loud, gymnasium, in a game with a hectic pace, doesn't give your partner any clue that this coach "has just about passed that line in the sand, he's been warned, and if he mouths off again he's going to be joining our tea party." Without this visual clue to your partner, he may give this coach a little leeway that you never intended him to get (To yourself: "What? Why is he even talking to that bastard? That son of a bitch already got his final warning. C'mon partner, bang him." When you're forty feet away). Without the visual clue, you may have to wait for a timeout, intermission, etc., for you to get together with your partner to let him know that you've had enough and that you want the coach sent to his seat on the bench, or maybe even to the locker room, at his next indiscretion.

On the other hand, if you think that the coach hasn't reached that line in the sand, and that, maybe, he deserves another shot at you, or your partner, then ignoring, and walking away, is a great way to handle the situation. Most coaches will eventually mouth of again and then either you, or your partner, can take care of business without the need of any stop sign. It may be different in Rob1968's neck of the woods, but around here, we don't have to give any "official" warning to a coach before ringing him up.

But, on the other hand (Have I run out of hands yet?), most coaches hate being ignored, and in a some cases, ignoring may actually escalate the situation.

Regarding the video evidence. In thirty-two years of officiating I've never had anybody, athletic director, principal, evaluator, assignment commissioner, etc., questioning any of my infrequent technical fouls. I really don't need a video of a stop sign to back me up later on. But, of course, there's always a first time.

And remember, I'm not a big fan:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I will often go a whole season without using it, but when I do, it's pretty effective.

Bottom line. In the wise words of Sylvester Stewart, better known as Sly Stone, "Different strokes by different folks". Man, if I didn't have Rich looking over my shoulder, this would have been a great place to post a video, for either the Sly and the Family Stone reference, or to the Supremes reference in the title of my post. Maybe he's out watching fireworks, and he won't notice. Should I chance it?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

The official finally, and without being overly stern, gave him the stop sign, and said, "Coach, that's enough. We're going to play ball."
The coach turned, to go towards his bench, and then said to the other official, "Well, can I talk to you?" That official was well aware of his partner's conversation, but chose to engage the coach for several sentences, regarding the same play.

The stop sign here is non-verbal communication and if I'm the other official it should be a big hint.

Regardless of how big and/or loud the gym is if this is a two-person game and Official A is able to speak in a normal voice to Coach A, he/she is more than likely table side. That means I, as Official B, am not so I won't know exactly what they discussed. If I see the hand go up, however, I know whatever discussion they've had is done AND the coach needs to shut it down so I consider that a big help. If he/she tries to speak to me immediately after that -assuming they're not losing they're mind - I think the "we're not discussing that play, coach" answer is great.

[Nevadaref]

Why is either official discussing a non-called, possible violation with a coach?
There was no whistle, there certainly won't be one now, and one isn't coming.
This isn't a legitimate reason to have a discussion with a coach. Save that for a question about a rule, a weird situation, a possible correctable error situation, or when one of his players gets T'd.

Seriously, some of the things over which people have interaction with coaches is so trivial and so unnecessary. Why are they doing it at all?

[Toren]

give a bench warning in high school?

I find that although it's no where in the rule book, it sends a pretty clear statement that we as a crew are done with the coach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Toren

give a bench warning in high school?

I find that although it's no where in the rule book, it sends a pretty clear statement that we as a crew are done with the coach.

I don't do it for three reasons.

First, it's not supported by rule.

Second, it means nothing more than just a simple verbal warning. I just make sure I inform my partners that I've warned the coach so we don't give him multiple warnings.

Third, it perpetuates the idea that they are some how owed a warning before any technical foul is issued.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

It means nothing more than just a simple verbal warning. I just make sure I inform my partners that I've warned the coach so we don't give him multiple warnings.

The second part of your statement (above) is important. Informing your partner could be either verbally (timeout, intermission, etc., my preferred method), or visually (stop sign). Sometimes things go so quickly in a game that one might not have time to verbally inform one's partner, thus the option (not by rule) of the stop sign. On the other hand, a partner, distracted while talking to a player, might not see a stop sign.

Originally Posted by Adam

It perpetuates the idea that they are some how owed a warning before any technical foul is issued.

Good point. One that I don't believe that I've ever seen expressed here on the Forum. Great point.