Block Charge Videos

[dvboa]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I don't know for sure, so I'll wait for the poster of the video to answer and clarify for us.
The final play looked like a C moving down to me as well, but it could just be the T working low. Also early round playoff games are still 2-man.

Ok boys and girls, this is was a preseason tournament championship game and we were working 3 person. During the regular season here in California we work 2 person. It isn't until the quarterfinals of the section playoffs that we go to 3 person. Hope that clears things up.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Hello all,
In the Great State of California all 1'st and 2'nd round sectional playoff games are handled with two person crews.Sectional quarterfinals and all subsequent rounds of the state tournament are handled in three person.Regular season assignments are also in two person except for select tournament finals.

oh and on the plays:
1.Charge
2.Play on
3.Charge

Please understand that what you have written is only accurate for Southern California. In the Northern half of the state section quarterfinals are done with two-person crews. 3-man is only used for semis and finals.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by dvboa

Ok boys and girls, this is was a preseason tournament championship game and we were working 3 person. During the regular season here in California we work 2 person. It isn't until the quarterfinals of the section playoffs that we go to 3 person. Hope that clears things up.

Thanks for providing confirmation of the system being used in this particular contest. Consider yourselves fortunate to have one more round of 3-person crews than in the north.

Now knowing this, I'll make one further comment on the first play in the video. There simply must be a whistle on this play from the C. (Doesn't matter if he calls a block or a charge, but make a call!). To not have one at all hurts our cause in officiating as it makes the coaches and administrators ask why they should bother to have 3-person crews. A 2-person crew could have no-called this just as well in the minds of those counting the beans.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Thanks for providing confirmation of the system being used in this particular contest. Consider yourselves fortunate to have one more round of 3-person crews than in the north.

Now knowing this, I'll make one further comment on the first play in the video. There simply must be a whistle on this play from the C. (Doesn't matter if he calls a block or a charge, but make a call!). To not have one at all hurts our cause in officiating as it makes the coaches and administrators ask why they should bother to have 3-person crews. A 2-person crew could have no-called this just as well in the minds of those counting the beans.

For crews who work two or three 3-man games per year, I'll cut them some slack.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Nevadaref,
Thanks for correcting me.I didn't realize that the northern part of the state followed a different procedure for playoff games then those of us down south.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Nevadaref,
Thanks for correcting me.I didn't realize that the northern part of the state followed a different procedure for playoff games then those of us down south.

It's not that much different, but the sections are generally smaller up North, thus 16 teams brackets are seen in each division during sectional playoffs whereas you will start with 32, especially in the SS. Smaller sections obviously have even fewer postseason qualifiers.
My experience has been that for 16 team brackets, the first two rounds use two-person crews and the last two rounds use three. Yep, those quarterfinal D1 boys games can be tough with only two officials.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

For crews who work two or three 3-man games per year, I'll cut them some slack.

Actually, that is one of the biggest complaints from both sides. The coaches and admin folks say that too much isn't done properly because of the officials lack of experience with the 3-person system and the officials also say that they don't get enough reps in the system because it isn't used during the regular season.

The bottom line is that using that excuse will only cause the decision makers to drop 3-person entirely. So no one can ask for slack, if we desire to demonstrate that 3-person is the way to go.

[JetMetFan]

Here's where I can't give the "they don't do 3-person that often" slack with the no-call on play #1: regardless of whether it was 2-person or 3-person, that contact was in the PCA of the official closest to the camera. It was on the border for 2-person but most definitely for 3-person.

If there was "2-person on the brain" in this play then I would've expected the Center AND the Lead to make a call instead of no one.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

hmm ... I wasn't sure how to phrase this. I didn't want to say "when the defender obtained legal guarding position" because in my opinion, they never did. So the defender was never set/established in a legal position.

any suggestions for better terminology?

Many years ago, (I can't remember the specific year), the word "establish", in 4-23-2,3,4,5 was changed to "obtain" because the NF Committee thought that "establish" denoted a process that took some amount of time. They wanted the mind-set of officials and others concerned, to be more focused on the moment of any contact rather than some process that was developing.

In block/charge situations, many officials, players and coaches still struggle with the concept. I once won a bet with two mouthy opponents who kept using the "set/he wasn't set" phrase, by telling them that the word "set" couldn't be found in the Rule Book.

[dvboa]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

hmm ... I wasn't sure how to phrase this. I didn't want to say "when the defender obtained legal guarding position" because in my opinion, they never did. So the defender was never set/established in a legal position.

any suggestions for better terminology?

We always ask our officials "Did the player go TO the defense or THROUGH the defense?"

I think if you apply this thinking then the sequence becomes easy.

1. pc - through
2. nc - to
3. pc - through

Hope this helps...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dvboa

We always ask our officials "Did the player go TO the defense or THROUGH the defense?"

I think if you apply this thinking then the sequence becomes easy.

1. pc - through
2. nc - to
3. pc - through

Hope this helps...

FWIW, NCAAW has specifically said that "to or through" is NOT the way to judge PC or no call -- you can have a PC even if it's just "TO"

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

1) Block. In real time, looks like a charge, but in slow motion, I think the offensive player was airborn when the defender got set and so the defender never obtained legal guarding position. It's also not the worst no-call I've seen.

2) no-call.

3) Charge.

Originally Posted by Adam

Rich alludes to it above, but there is no requirement for a defender to ever be set. Ever. LGP does not require "getting set."

Originally Posted by dvboa

We always ask our officials "Did the player go TO the defense or THROUGH the defense?"

I think if you apply this thinking then the sequence becomes easy.

1. pc - through


Hope this helps...

"Through" is not illegal if the defender is moving forward as the defender in #1 was still doing even at the time of contact, much less the time the shooter left the floor.

If you referee the defense, that becomes easy to see.

[dvboa]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

"Through" is not illegal if the defender is moving forward as the defender in #1 was still doing even at the time of contact, much less the time the shooter left the floor.

If you referee the defense, that becomes easy to see.

I guess there is no easy way of putting a term to describe a block/charge. To many variables. Just call it and hope you're not wrong...

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. Charge, the defender obtains LGP prior to the opponent's second foot leaving the floor. However, he is not in LGP prior to the start of the offensive player's upward movement, so this is a call which will change under the new NCAA rule. Will be intriguing to see how this philosophy/rule change filters down into the HS game.

Charge - It's close and I am not going to lose sleep either way, but something needs to be called.
No call - but difficult to see contact from camera angle. I could even argue for a block as it looks to me like defender may be moving into offensive player.
Charge - I know this is in L's PCA, but anyone else wish C had a double whistle here? What other competitive matchups does C have?

In regards to the quoted, since this was a pass, does the upward movement of the new NCAAW rule still apply?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AustinRef

Charge - I know this is in L's PCA, but anyone else wish C had a double whistle here? What other competitive matchups does C have?

In regards to the quoted, since this was a pass, does the upward movement of the new NCAAW rule still apply?

*As to the C having a double whistle, no I don't think he should. If there's a double it should be with the T since that's where the play started.

*Remember, the PC change being considered would only apply to NCAAM