Pac-12 Officiating

[tomegun]

I have lived on the west coast, then east coast, then the south and now the west coast. The officials on the west coast are not on the same level as the officials on the east coast period dot. IMO, there are many reasons why this is the case and it is something that is talked about openly on the east coast. Part of it has already been mentioned - there are more games to work on the east coast. By the time someone is working a regular schedule in the ACC, SEC, Big East, etc. they have worked smaller D1 conferences (this is the norm). On the west coast, an official can be one good summer away from working in the PAC-12. Depending on who vouches for them, they could survive until they are known by coaches and accepted. It is almost like camping and politics can put you in the PAC-12 on the west coast and the Big South on the east coast. I am skipping right over any potential discussion as to whether politics play a part in this - I think that is a given.

[Nevadaref]

Are there more top officials in the East? Yes, there are five power conferences covering that part of the country and extending into the Midwest. There is only ONE power conference in the West and three decent conferences which are considered second-tier or mid-major. So obviously there aren't going to be as many officials.

Are there better officials in the East? No, the top guys in the PAC12, WAC, WCC, and Mtn West can call just as well as the top guys in the East.

The situation is just that due to the population distribution of the country and the population density, there are fewer schools in the West and they are farther apart. So the needs are different. There is less need for officials in the West and those needed must be able to do more traveling. Not everyone can do that. Also, since there are fewer slots, there is a question as to whether there is more competition for them or if once a conference supervisor gets some guys then no one else has a chance to move up or get in. So do guys not get pushed to continue to improve? Perhaps.

If the conferences in the West were to hire the same number of officials as the assignors in the East, then the guys would work far fewer games. The coaches may or may not like that, but it likely would hurt the development, progress, experience, and sharpness of the western officials.

Btw someone asked about the level of play in the West at the HS level.
Does anyone really think that the players coming out of SoCal, Vegas, Seattle, the Bay Area aren't competing with those from the rest of the country? Just look at the D1 scholarship recruits. There are plenty of kids coming from these places. Heck the clear #1 HS team in the country this past season was from Utah and on the prep academy scene Findlay from Vegas has been ranked #1 for much of the past three years.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Also, since there are fewer slots, there is a question as to whether there is more competition for them or if once a conference supervisor gets some guys then no one else has a chance to move up or get in. So do guys not get pushed to continue to improve? Perhaps.

I think that is largely neutral. For the same reasons that there are fewer slots to be filled (fewer schools due to smaller overall population) there will also be fewer officials. The ratio of slots to officials shouldn't be that different.

In the east, it is just easier for a big name to work games in 10 different conferences throughout the year why would they bother to fly an extra 3-4 hours (maybe each way) for a comparable game....unless the compensation allowed them to take the next day off and make similar money.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Are there better officials in the East? No, the top guys in the PAC12, WAC, WCC, and Mtn West can call just as well as the top guys in the East.

I disagree. I'm not sure if you are basing your statement on opinion only, but I am saying this based on opinion, film breakdown and other factors; in the end I'm talking about call accuracy. I have been in the room when a retired NBA official (he wasn't retired at the time) broke down a game officiated by one of the "Big Dogs" from the west coast on it. Basic stuff - you have to be in the correct position to have the best chance to make the correct call. If someone is consistently hustling out of position the calls become guesses and in this case several wrong guesses. Now, that says nothing about communication skills which as I'm sure we all know can allow an official to get away with wrong calls.

I know the processes on both coasts intimately and I've been in the room with the "Big Dogs" from both coasts to hear what they have to say. I have been evaluated by officials from both coasts - and raked over the coals by evaluators from both coasts.

For the most part, what we see on TV is the same or similar: official makes a call and it is accepted the majority of the time. That doesn't really speak to call accuracy or who is better does it?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

... On the west coast, an official can be one good summer away from working in the PAC-12. Depending on who vouches for them, they could survive until they are known by coaches and accepted. It is almost like camping and politics can put you in the PAC-12 on the west coast and the Big South on the east coast. I am skipping right over any potential discussion as to whether politics play a part in this - I think that is a given.

So there is some credence to the old forum joke about how fast an official from SoCal can rise to the top.

[Multiple Sports]

Tome is right on......

The chances of Clougherty taking someone in the CAA without a few years in BS / MEAC / PAT - IVY is spot on..... You don't get in BE without a few years in MAAC / CAA / A - 10.

What I am curious about on the west coast is how do the spervisors work together ??? Outside of the love fest between two supervisors in the Va / Carolina area, everybody else works pretty well together,,,,

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Tome is right on......

The chances of Clougherty taking someone in the CAA without a few years in BS / MEAC / PAT - IVY is spot on..... You don't get in BE without a few years in MAAC / CAA / A - 10.

What I am curious about on the west coast is how do the spervisors work together ??? Outside of the love fest between two supervisors in the Va / Carolina area, everybody else works pretty well together,,,,

That goes for any league in the that is primarily located in the east of the Mississippi. You are not working the Big 10 if you do not work the MAC, Summit or Horizon for some time. And even in the Big 12 you will not be hired by the supervisor in the Big 12 without working in the Sun Belt or OVC as a general rule. I thought that was the case out west, but maybe not.

Peace

[rockyroad]

I also have worked games on both coasts and in the middle. And I have worked with people who bragged about how many D-1 conferences they worked - and then stepped on the court with them and wanted to shoot myself in the head, they were that horrible.

So the "big dogs" in the east get to work more conferences than out here - again that's because of population density and the number of schools. Certainly doesn't mean that the only "good" officials are on the east coast.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I also have worked games on both coasts and in the middle. And I have worked with people who bragged about how many D-1 conferences they worked - and then stepped on the court with them and wanted to shoot myself in the head, they were that horrible.

So the "big dogs" in the east get to work more conferences than out here - again that's because of population density and the number of schools. Certainly doesn't mean that the only "good" officials are on the east coast.

We are not judging these things by who we might have worked with, we are judging this by what we see. I am not impressed with a lot of Pac 12 officiating. Of course there are more officials out this way and there are good and buy guys all the way around, but I see a lot of things that make me scratch my head out when watching in the Pac 10/12 games. That being said I have seen some outstanding officials work games, but overall I wonder where they get some of them. And if a lot of them are getting to that level without having to go through the fire, then that might explain that.

Peace

[tomegun]

I hope my posts clearly communicated the fact that I have done more than work games with some people from both coasts. I have been to camps, been evaluated and worked games at various levels on both coasts...as a resident of the area. I am also talking purely about call accuracy and the work that is done to get to the point of (hopefully) making calls consistently. I have friends on both coasts; very good people both places.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

...Certainly doesn't mean that the only "good" officials are on the east coast.

I missed that post. In fact, I missed where it was a discussion of East Coast vs. West Coast.

I thought is was a discussion about how many quality officials conferences east of the Rockies have access to as complared to how may quality officials conferences west of the Rockies have access to. The Big Ten is not "East Coast", neither is the SEC or Big XII.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I missed that post. In fact, I missed where it was a discussion of East Coast vs. West Coast.

You mean to tell me we are back to the Biggie vs. TuPac beef again? (Sorry I could not resist).

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I thought is was a discussion about how many quality officials conferences east of the Rockies have access to as complared to how may quality officials conferences west of the Rockies have access to. The Big Ten is not "East Coast", neither is the SEC or Big XII.

It was, but some people get offended when you point out deficiencies of places they are from. I agree, this is about pure numbers more than anything. It has already been stated the western part of the country obviously does not have the population that the eastern part has. I would just think purely off of numbers you would have more good officials just like you have more good teams from the midwestern to eastern parts of the state.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Guess I need to type slowly for a few of us to understand what I am saying...I have not argued the numbers. But the numbers really don't matter - there are way more D-1 schools "back east" so they need way more D-1 officials "back east". Hopefully we can all agree on that. But that does not mean that the Pac-12 officials are somehow deficient or not as good as people who work the SEC or ACC or Big East...

I appreciate tomegun's comments as he has been in multiple places and seen officiating at the various levels. But I don't think that he is saying that there aren't any good officials in the Pac. He can correct me if I am wrong.

As far as being "offended" by someone supposedly pointing out a deficiency, that's just a stupid comment. Not really surprising considering...but first - not offended by anyone else's opinion. It's a discussion forum where we discuss opinions. And so far the only "deficiency" pointed out has been that there are more people living in the "east" than the "west". That's not a deficiency - it's a reason to live out here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Guess I need to type slowly for a few of us to understand what I am saying...I have not argued the numbers. But the numbers really don't matter - there are way more D-1 schools "back east" so they need way more D-1 officials "back east". Hopefully we can all agree on that. But that does not mean that the Pac-12 officials are somehow deficient or not as good as people who work the SEC or ACC or Big East...

It can if those top officials are only top officials by taking a completely different route to the top. If officials have more competition and see better basketball overall in one part of the country as compared to another part of the country, I think that could influence who overall is better. Can a west coast official work every night of the week the way a guy in the Midwest and East Coast official while not working every top conference during that week? I do not know the answer to that question, just asking.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I appreciate tomegun's comments as he has been in multiple places and seen officiating at the various levels. But I don't think that he is saying that there aren't any good officials in the Pac. He can correct me if I am wrong.

Maybe I am wrong, but I do not recall anyone saying here that there were no good officials in the Pac 12.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

As far as being "offended" by someone supposedly pointing out a deficiency, that's just a stupid comment. Not really surprising considering...but first - not offended by anyone else's opinion. It's a discussion forum where we discuss opinions. And so far the only "deficiency" pointed out has been that there are more people living in the "east" than the "west". That's not a deficiency - it's a reason to live out here

Well that depends on what you value I guess.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Guess I need to type slowly for a few of us to understand what I am saying...I have not argued the numbers. But the numbers really don't matter - there are way more D-1 schools "back east" so they need way more D-1 officials "back east". Hopefully we can all agree on that. But that does not mean that the Pac-12 officials are somehow deficient or not as good as people who work the SEC or ACC or Big East...

...

I'll go back to my point which has to do with D1 coaches. D1 coaches like to know that the officials who work their games are guys who also work other major conferences want to use for their big games. Really has nothing to do with quality. They want to feel comfortable that at least one of the guys working their game that night is the cream of the crop across the country and they get that confirmation by seeing that guy working a big TV game in another conference.

My take on this issue has nothing to do with "difficiencies" or "West Coast vs. East Coast".