Pac-12 Officiating

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So based on the responses in the this thread, I believe everyone here has proven the PAC 12 coaches' point: The PAC 12 doesn't have access to the same quantity of quality officials that the other 5 Big Boy conferences have.

Nope...you have just fallen into the same trap as the whiny coaches out here. There are plenty of high quality officials available in Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, etc., etc...we don't need guys to travel from the east to rescue us out here.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So based on the responses in the this thread, I believe everyone here has proven the PAC 12 coaches' point: The PAC 12 doesn't have access to the same quantity of quality officials that the other 5 Big Boy conferences have.

Possibly, but it may also come down to instruction. Then again, I don't get to watch enough Pac 12 ball to really make a judgment on the quality.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure it is. There just are not very many schools very close out west. Even though there are a few very big cities, there are only a few. Everything is spread out. Instead of a 1-2 hour flights or even a drive, you've got 3-5 hour flights to get to/from your next location. Or, you don't even have a major airport close to the school and you've got a flight and a drive or a flight and some puddle hopper connector.

In the East it isn't even a matter of flying. In the pre-major expansion version of the Big East you could hit every school using Amtrak if you wanted to. Pitt and Syracuse were the only places where officials really needed to fly. Every other school was along the Northeast Corridor. The smaller D-1s (Ivy, Northeast, MAAC) fall into that category now.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Nope...you have just fallen into the same trap as the whiny coaches out here. There are plenty of high quality officials available in Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, etc., etc...we don't need guys to travel from the east to rescue us out here.

When you have 5 conferences (Big East/Big Ten/SEC/ACC/Big XII) that have access to officials, and can share those same officials, from the Rocky Mountains to the Altantic Ocean and another conference that only has access to officials from the Pacific Ocean to the Rockies (to include 3 large states with very little population:Idaho/Montana/Wyoming), how do you figure the officiating pool is equal?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Possibly, but it may also come down to instruction. Then again, I don't get to watch enough Pac 12 ball to really make a judgment on the quality.

I'm not talking about the quality of what we see on TV. I'm talking about access to a pool of officials. The farther you go east, the denser the population, the more basketball there is, and the more basketball officials there are.

I'm not making a judgment one way or another about the product the PAC 12 is getting. Those PAC 12 coaches are no different than any of the coaches anywhere else in the country. They like seeing "TV" faces working their games. An ACC coach can turn on his TV at night an see officials from his last game working big games in the Big XII or Big East or SEC or Big 10.

[JRutledge]

I can speak to this fact too. NAIA, JUCO, D2 or D3 coaches love to see guys that worked on TV or that work D1 at their games. One more pressure for those working to stay closer to home when you have a full time job and a family.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

When you have 5 conferences (Big East/Big Ten/SEC/ACC/Big XII) that have access to officials, and can share those same officials, from the Rocky Mountains to the Altantic Ocean and another conference that only has access to officials from the Pacific Ocean to the Rockies (to include 3 large states with very little population:Idaho/Montana/Wyoming), how do you figure the officiating pool is equal?

Didn't say it was equal...said there are plenty of good officials out here who - if they chose to move east - would be working all those same tv games tomorrow.

[johnny d]

Have to agree with BNR on this one. If you are going to limit your pool of officials by geography, then there is no way you can claim you are getting the best officials for your games. Especially when you figure population and number of officials in each geographical area into the equation, statistics would indicate you are losing out on more top officials than you have access to. Doesnt mean there isnt quality officials out west or that they are in need of any rescuing, but it is foolish to think the pac12 is getting the best officials in the country on their games when they are not using many officials from the majority of the country.

I also dont buy the travel excuse when it comes to the top officials. As was already stated, those guys are on the road 25+ days a month already. Would it be inconvenient for them to go to the west coast, probably a little. But lets not pretend that they couldnt pick up games in some of the mid-major conferences while they are there. These guys can get games from a mid-major assignor on any night they want with just a phone call. They wouldnt have any problem scheduling a series of games out west all in a week that would allow them to take one big trip and couple it with numerous smaller trips.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Have to agree with BNR on this one. If you are going to limit your pool of officials by geography, then there is no way you can claim you are getting the best officials for your games. Especially when you figure population and number of officials in each geographical area into the equation, statistics would indicate you are losing out on more top officials than you have access to. Doesnt mean there isnt quality officials out west or that they are in need of any rescuing, but it is foolish to think the pac12 is getting the best officials in the country on their games when they are not using many officials from the majority of the country.

.

So using your own logic, the conferences in the east are not getting the best officials because they are not hiring people from the west either. And why aren't they hiring them? Because of the travel costs involved.

[Matt S.]

I've had this exact conversation with two men who worked the Final Four the past few years--because I went to school in Los Angeles but now live in Omaha (and am about to move to Boston).

The reality is,a guy can fly from the east coast to Omaha, work a Big Ten game at Iowa/Minnesota/Nebraska, work a Big 12 game at Kansas/Iowa State/K-State/Missouri, work a Missouri Valley conference game, and pick up a Summit League game if he wanted to, all within a four-hour drive of a single airport. The MVC pays as much if not more than the power conferences (tiered structure) to get high profile officials...and they come from both sides of the country.

The real issue is there aren't any officials flying east to officiate Pac-12 games!!!

[JRutledge]

As long as we are independent contractors and the conferences or NCAA is not putting officials on a full salary and staff, you will not ever get guys to cross the country unless they are compensated to do so. Keep in mind that the officials pay for their own flights and travel even if it is apart of their fee.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So using your own logic, the conferences in the east are not getting the best officials because they are not hiring people from the west either. And why aren't they hiring them? Because of the travel costs involved.

The supervisors out east are missing out on some, supervisors out west are missing out on a lot. It's basic math.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The supervisors out east are missing out on some, supervisors out west are missing out on a lot. It's basic math.

BNR are you implying that Clougherty and Greenwood are missing out on you........

If the guys on the East Coast are so much better....have we discussed why ??? Is it an East Coast bias ??? I say no..... Look at the summer leagues that take place in the following areas

Norfolk - Boo Williams

DC - Kenner League

Balt - Summer nights at the Dome

Phillly - Sonny Hill League

NY - Rucker Park

Jim Burch ( CIAA and former Southern Assigner ) once said if you can work in those summer leagues and survive you can work anywhere in the country.....

I know this thread neccessarily isn't about deveoping officials but thought I would throw it out there.....Curious as to what you guys out in PAC 12 country think about development and are all the top hs athletes playin football ????

[twocentsworth]

The "travel challenge" is two fold:

1) It's VERY difficult to catch a return flight from the Pacific Time Zone to the Central/Eastern Time Zones THE MORNING AFTER working a game to be in your next city/arena by 5:30pm for the 7pm tip-off.
+ Even if your 6am flight from LAX goes to Chicago, it doesn't arrive until noon at the earliest...and then you have to factor in airline delyas due to weather/driving to campus....you don't want to be known as missing games due to travel issues.
+ It CAN work however, I know a Midwest official who worked a game @ UNLV on a Saturday night, took a midnight flight to Chicago and worked a 2pm CT game at Illinois St on Sunday afternoon.

2) Even if you stayed out West and tried to piggy-back games, most of the conference play on the same nights (at least during the conference season). Thr/Sat leagues: PAC-12, West Coast Conf., Big West, Big Sky. Wed/Sat league: Mountain West. (there are other leauges, but you can research them yourself)
+ There are certainly exceptions to the scheduling, but leagues do this because of the cost savings to have a team play 2 road games on the same trip.

Several mid-major leagues have made adjustments to increase the number of "high profile" officials working their games: Mid-American Conf. changed their game dates to include Sun's and Fri's (general "off" days). The Missouri Valley created a "bonus pay" system: you give us 10 dates w/ 3 being Saturdays and will give you $500 extra per game. MANY other leagues have implemented a "tiered-pay scale" to attract guys...All of these strategies have worked and may be something that the Pac-12 and other leagues out West can implement to achieve their goals.

[rockyroad]

PAC-12 already has a tiered pay system. I believe the Big Sky does also.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

PAC-12 already has a tiered pay system. I believe the Big Sky does also.

I think the travel issues are the biggest reason....they just can't get to many other locations the next day in time. To be able to work back-to-back dates, they just take games in areas where they can easily link things together.

Can you imagine driving from Pullman or Eugene on a snowy January night to the nearest major airport? Not a chance of getting a flight back to anywhere until the next morning. With that and the time change, you're not getting back to anywhere east of the central USA until late afternoon at best. Even early departing non-stop fights to major hubs don't arrive until after noon (for central locations) or even later for the eastern third.

Westerners just have to accept the fact that the east is far more densely populated and realized that has various implications. From where i live, there is only ONE other major US city within a 10 hour drive....and probably 15 hours to get more than 4.