T or no T

[deecee]

Originally Posted by RefAHallic

You know what? This girl deserves a technical. Someone said it earlier...her actions were clearly an attempt to show up the officials. Don't know how I didn't arrive at that conclusion initially.

I don't see that. She puts the ball down calmly, and I don't see any gestures or her mouthing anything (the later would be tough), and I don't see any over the top behavior which is usually accompanied in instances like this. She comes out of the pack calmly and places the ball on the court. Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).

The fact that I don't see any of this is suspect (it's also a small clip of a longer game, so I don't know what has happened up to now, and I'm only judging what I would do based on this clip).

[JRutledge]

Well that is the chance these players or coaches take. When they show displeasure they risk the chance someone will not take it well. So it was better of her to pick the ball up or leave it alone in the first place. It is like flipping a bat or raising your arms after a ball-strike call in a baseball game. Some umpires might not take too kindly to that action.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't see that. She puts the ball down calmly, and I don't see any gestures or her mouthing anything (the later would be tough), and I don't see any over the top behavior which is usually accompanied in instances like this. She comes out of the pack calmly and places the ball on the court. Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).

The fact that I don't see any of this is suspect (it's also a small clip of a longer game, so I don't know what has happened up to now, and I'm only judging what I would do based on this clip).

Are you even aware of this rule?

SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
...
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Are you even aware of this rule?

SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
...
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows

Yes, and if you adjudicate that rule as written you will have quite a lot of T's every game.

[JRutledge]

There is a lot of judgment involved even if you go by the black and white of the rule. Not every action is going to be seen as a delay the rule speaks about.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes, and if you adjudicate that rule as written you will have quite a lot of T's every game.

I see that you don't even grasp when it is appropriate to use such a rule. Must be all that great insight you are receiving at those college camps.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I see that you don't even grasp when it is appropriate to use such a rule. Must be all that great insight you are receiving at those college camps.

And of course posts like this ( and your earlier ones to deecee) go such a long way towards keeping good young officials involved in the HS game. As you said, you don't give a darn what he thinks, and I would imagine that he doesn't give a darn what you think.

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Agreed. It's why I said this should have been a T as soon as she did that. She did it to either show displeasure or to show up the officials. Whack her, I say.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Once again I don't see any body language indicating frustration directed towards the refs any more than maybe they are just losing, or shes having a bad game or many other reasons. She might not have heard the ref, but when he did get her attention she just turned and went to the ball. In my experience there would have been a pause, or a shrug, or even a frustrated sigh and hands being thrown up. There isn't enough here, IMO, to say yes or no on the T.

There is enough here to warrant a, "please don't do that again" or "get us the ball next time instead of placing it on the court". but beyond that I'm not sold on a T. And I agree I have never seen this done, especially in such a calm manner, which is why I'm not sold on a T. In the case of throwing the ball in the corner, that's different and very obvious intent.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Technical foul. Can we close the thread now?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And of course posts like this ( and your earlier ones to deecee) go such a long way towards keeping good young officials involved in the HS game. As you said, you don't give a darn what he thinks, and I would imagine that he doesn't give a darn what you think.

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

I quoted the rule to show that there is specific rules support for issuing a T in this case. Naturally, experienced officials know that it isn't adhered to literally, but it is certainly appropriate to invoke when a player is being a PITA, such as the one in the video.

It really bothers me when people advocate officials put up with crap from coaches and players. They make all kinds of excuses such as deecee has done in this thread. What I see is blatant disrespect. For someone who claims to be an official to accuse anyone who would penalize this behavior of being overly officious is stabbing fellow officials in the back. So many of us make a tremendous effort to earn respect that it sickens me to see some (deleted) preaching that an official would be in the wrong to uphold that standard.

[OKREF]

I would most likely give a T here. But, if not, she probably picks up 2 fouls real quick.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Nevadaref, here is what you thought deecee said.





Here is what deecee actually said.

I think you're picking nits. Deecee may have hedged, but Nevada seems to have accurately gauged his meaning, IMO.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Are you even aware of this rule?

SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
...
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows

Wow. you must have a lot of T's in your games.

The player in possession of the ball when the whistle blows often does not pass the ball to the nearer official. It may eventually get there, but it it is often not immediate and is often another player.

I guess, taken literally, this rule means that a player who is fouled after beginning a shot attempt and in continuous motion could earn a T for continuing with the shot!

Also, what if they pass it to the farther official because they don't see the nearer official or don't pull out their tape measure to verify who is closest? Is that a T too?


But seriously, now, I agree that sitting the ball on the floor is sufficient to earn the T.