T or no T

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes, and if you adjudicate that rule as written you will have quite a lot of T's every game.

I see that you don't even grasp when it is appropriate to use such a rule. Must be all that great insight you are receiving at those college camps.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I see that you don't even grasp when it is appropriate to use such a rule. Must be all that great insight you are receiving at those college camps.

And of course posts like this ( and your earlier ones to deecee) go such a long way towards keeping good young officials involved in the HS game. As you said, you don't give a darn what he thinks, and I would imagine that he doesn't give a darn what you think.

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Agreed. It's why I said this should have been a T as soon as she did that. She did it to either show displeasure or to show up the officials. Whack her, I say.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Once again I don't see any body language indicating frustration directed towards the refs any more than maybe they are just losing, or shes having a bad game or many other reasons. She might not have heard the ref, but when he did get her attention she just turned and went to the ball. In my experience there would have been a pause, or a shrug, or even a frustrated sigh and hands being thrown up. There isn't enough here, IMO, to say yes or no on the T.

There is enough here to warrant a, "please don't do that again" or "get us the ball next time instead of placing it on the court". but beyond that I'm not sold on a T. And I agree I have never seen this done, especially in such a calm manner, which is why I'm not sold on a T. In the case of throwing the ball in the corner, that's different and very obvious intent.

[just another ref]

As others have said, the rule quoted by Nevada is not a fit-all and cannot be interpreted literally. But whether the player in question is aware of this rule or not, she is not allowed to tear it out of the book, wad it up, and throw it in the official's face, which is what happened here.

T

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by deecee

There is enough here to warrant a, "please don't do that again" or "get us the ball next time instead of placing it on the court". but beyond that I'm not sold on a T.

I agree, I think the official did the right thing by asking her to get the ball and based on the lack of frustration you describe, I'm assuming the new lead asked nicely. I can see a soccer player using their foot to pass the ball to a ref, however, in basketball, I think it's common practice to pick the ball up and bounce, toss or hand it to the official. Kicking it kinda says, "here, you pick it up". That's where I'm sold.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I agree, I think the official did the right thing by asking her to get the ball and based on the lack of frustration you describe, I'm assuming the new lead asked nicely. I can see a soccer player using their foot to pass the ball to a ref, however, in basketball, I think it's common practice to pick the ball up and bounce, toss or hand it to the official. Kicking it kinda says, "here, you pick it up". That's where I'm sold.

I look at this play based on the 8 seconds of clip. Heck we don't even see the foul leading up to the play. I don't know if the foul was called on this player. I don't know if this player has been the model citizen all game or not. I dont' know if this same player is really being disrespectful or maybe doesn't know any better (and I can say in my experience in the women's game at the HS players you will get varsity girls who don't know basketball).

Based on all this uncertainty and what was shown on the clip I didn't think THIS was T worthy. Heck if this player was called for the foul and stormed out with the ball and did this then the circumstances change. But I think that unless a supervisor were to address this as either an automatic T either (a) at the placing of the ball on the floor or (b) at the kick (but more like a nudge) of the ball towards the official, I would not be so quick to jump on the T bandwagon here. I would also never get so worked up that my point of view wasn't shared or find the need to resort to more assumptions and name calling.

For the record when I said this could be potentially viewed as overly officious it's what it was. Potentially, it could also be potentially viewed as the right thing to do. The glass is half full and half empty in any discussion involving 2 points of views. My point of view was also supported by evidence, or lack thereof, in the video and 8 seconds of dead ball activity in a vacuum.

What would the consensus be if a TO were called and the player dropped the ball instead of giving it to the official? Do you chase the player down to get you the ball there too?

[Adam]

Dropped? No.
Purposefully placed it down well away from me while I'm clearly calling for the ball? Yes. It's just the same as bouncing it away from me. Best case for the player, they get the opportunity to fix the issue.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by deecee

What would the consensus be if a TO were called and the player dropped the ball instead of giving it to the official? Do you chase the player down to get you the ball there too?

Two very different things.

Better situation to compare: timeout is called, and I call out to player "Hey 23, ball please!" and now she sets it down in the corner deliberately and walks away? I will more than likely T her (can't say definitely as it hasn't happened yet)

Again, the biggest thing to me in the OP is that the new L is calling for the ball, and she purposefully sets it down and walks away. That is absolutely a "F-ck you" action from that player.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I can see a soccer player using their foot to pass the ball to a ref, however, in basketball, I think it's common practice to pick the ball up and bounce, toss or hand it to the official. Kicking it kinda says, "here, you pick it up". That's where I'm sold.

I'm sold now.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Technical foul. Can we close the thread now?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And of course posts like this ( and your earlier ones to deecee) go such a long way towards keeping good young officials involved in the HS game. As you said, you don't give a darn what he thinks, and I would imagine that he doesn't give a darn what you think.

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

I quoted the rule to show that there is specific rules support for issuing a T in this case. Naturally, experienced officials know that it isn't adhered to literally, but it is certainly appropriate to invoke when a player is being a PITA, such as the one in the video.

It really bothers me when people advocate officials put up with crap from coaches and players. They make all kinds of excuses such as deecee has done in this thread. What I see is blatant disrespect. For someone who claims to be an official to accuse anyone who would penalize this behavior of being overly officious is stabbing fellow officials in the back. So many of us make a tremendous effort to earn respect that it sickens me to see some (deleted) preaching that an official would be in the wrong to uphold that standard.

[OKREF]

I would most likely give a T here. But, if not, she probably picks up 2 fouls real quick.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

She probably picks up 2 fouls real quick.

That's not what I'm advocating, unless the fouls are real fouls. I'm not making up any fouls, but I'm not going to miss any either.