T or no T

[Bad Zebra]

Definitely a brief discussion as she saunters by...good move to have her retrieve it initially. As a singular act, I don't see it rising to a T-worthy level.

[BillyMac]

I would definitely be keeping an eye of #32 for the rest of the game. Anything marginal, will be called. Anything. She's one of those knuckleheads that we keep talking about here on the Forum. Being a sexist pig, I usually think of knuckleheads as being male, but, in reality, they do present themselves as different genders.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would definitely be keeping an eye of #32 for the rest of the game. Anything marginal, will be called. Anything.

That's not the appropriate or professional manner to handle this.
Never allow your judgment on decisions to be influenced by anything. That compromises the integrity of the game.
Recommending that anything marginal from this player in the future will be a foul is an unfair way to officiate. Just take care of business and penalize the unsporting act when it occurs and then continue officiating the remainder of the contest in your normal manner.

[RefAHallic]

If this was the first act, wouldn't a game delay warning work? I'm sure the official didn't tell #32 to go back to the ball and kick it over to me. If this is in addition to other knucklehead conduct then spank her with a technical.

[APG]

Originally Posted by RefAHallic

If this was the first act, wouldn't a game delay warning work? I'm sure the official didn't tell #32 to go back to the ball and kick it over to me. If this is in addition to other knucklehead conduct then spank her with a technical.

Under NFHS rules, there are only four situations under which you can issue a delay of game warning. This is not one of them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's not the appropriate or professional manner to handle this.

I see your point, but I'm always going to keep a close eye on the knuckleheads in the game. These are the players (usually football players trying to stay in shape during the winter) who are always blurring the "lines in the sand. These are the players who, very often, are involved with intentional "hard" fouls, flagrant fouls, and verbal confrontations, as well as physical fights. It's in the best interest of the officials to keep an eye on these types of players. I'm not saying to "make up" any calls, but if they do something illegal, then, by all means, don't think about passing on it.

In the case of the young lady in the video. Maybe she caught me by surprise, and maybe I passed on the technical foul the first time, but I can be sure that I won't pass on something similar again.

Let's flip this around. I've heard a philosophy to "protect the stars", that is, to pass on any some calls to keep the star players in the game. I do not agree with this philosophy.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would definitely be keeping an eye of #32 for the rest of the game. She's one of those knuckleheads that we keep talking about here on the Forum.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's not the appropriate or professional manner to handle this. Never allow your judgment on decisions to be influenced by anything. That compromises the integrity of the game.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm always going to keep a close eye on the knuckleheads in the game. These are the players (usually football players trying to stay in shape during the winter) who are always blurring the "lines in the sand. These are the players who, very often, are involved with intentional "hard" fouls, flagrant fouls, and verbal confrontations, as well as physical fights. It's in the best interest of the officials to keep an eye on these types of players. I'm not saying to "make up" any calls, but if they do something illegal, then, by all means, don't think about passing on it.

Remember this (below) from last year? This kid is the kind of knucklehead that's getting some extra attention from me in my game. I'm not going to make stuff up, but he's not getting a pass on anything illegal either.

[deecee]

It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.

Everything in this post is indicative of a young, inexperienced official who gets walked on by players such as this and coaches who will demonstrate displeasure.
Sadly, those who officiate in such a manner send the message to the coaches and players that such behavior is okay and contribute to all officials having to deal with this garbage.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.

You're not quite on my page. While I agree the "kick" was more of a push, I'm not going to say it's looking for trouble to call the T. Call the T, and the next time a ref asks her to get the ball, she'll pick it up and throw it to him nicely.

She absolutely put the ball down out of disgust, there's no question about that. While I can watch this and second guess whether a T should be called, chances are good that on the floor, I would have called the T when she kicked it. If I'd already talked to her, she wouldn't have even had that chance.

[Nevadaref]

And I still disagree with what you are advocating.

In the case of the boys game from last year, some of the individual acts depicted in the video should have been penalized with either intentional or flagrant fouls, but the officials shouldn't have been looking for anything extra to assess to those players. That isn't within our job description. We are there to enforce the rules, not to selectively penalize certain individuals because we don't like something which they did previously.
Your entire method of thinking on this is flawed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The officials should have been looking for anything extra to assess to those players.

Not looking for anything extra, I'm just giving the knucklehead a little more than 10% of my attention (or what ever the average percentage of attention is per player in my primary coverage area). See my post title for some folksy wisdom.

[Nevadaref]

Whack.

I will be shocked if anyone who responds to this thread takes the position that this behavior by a player is acceptable.

The only reason that it continues to occur is that officials fail to penalize it.
We are our own worst enemy sometimes.

[Adam]

Nevada, when are you calling the T? When she puts the ball down or when she pushes it to you with her foot?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Nevada, when are you calling the T? When she puts the ball down or when she pushes it to you with her foot?

Since both actions are unacceptable and against the rules, it really doesn't matter, but I feel that if there hasn't been a whistle before she kicks the ball, then one is certainly needed at that time. Everyone in the gym sees that and it slights the officiating crew and is an affront to the game overall.

Personally, it would come down to which position I had on the court. If I am next to this player, then my whistle sounds when she puts the ball down and walks away. If my partner is over there and chooses to instruct her to retrieve the ball, then I'm staying out of it until she elects to kick it. At that point I'm charging a T from anywhere on the court.