Duke-Louisville foul no continuation clip (Dieng/Plumlee 2nd half)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It actually starts before the gather, but then again I would have awarded shots.

Peace

Shooting starts before you catch the ball? That is a new one.

It is oddly inconsistent how you argue for the latest possible gather when the topic is traveling but you have an extremely early gather when it comes to a shot. I'd hate to see you sort out the play when a player is fouled just after traveling in the midst of a gather. You'd rule it a shooting foul because he gathered and no travel because he hadn't gathered and everyone would be scratching their heads. You can't have it both ways and be right.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Shooting starts before you catch the ball? That is a new one.

The habitual motion does.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The habitual motion does.

Peace

No it doesn't. Until you've caught the ball, you are not shooting. That much is certain. I don't think I have ever seen a player sent to the line for shots when they got fouled before they catch the ball.

You might as well argue that the last 3 dribbles before a shot are part of someone's habitual motion.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No it doesn't.

OK, whatever you say. There was a S & I picture that once showed it did.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, whatever you say. There was a S & I picture that once showed it did.

Peace

You seem to be confusing the Sunday comics with the S&I picture.

4-41
A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 . . . The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

Right there you go....times 3.
1. You have to have the ball before you can be shooting it.
2. You have to be trying to throw it (and can't through something you don't have).
3. And the habitual motion "precedes the release"....meaning it occurs while the player is holding the ball.

Anything else (your definition of gather) is fiction.

4-11
Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

Gathering the ball is not "throwing movement". Almost ready to start throwing it to the basket is not enough. The rules require that they have actually started the throwing movement when they get fouled.

[JRutledge]

What does exactly do you think "Has the ball" mean?

If you are dribbling you have the ball right? It also says, "In the official's judgment" right?

Also the usage of the term "gather" is philosophy based as well. It is a way to decide when someone is doing something with the ball and to be consistent. Because even in the definition you mentioned, there was a picture in the S & I book that showed a sequence of when to call a shooting foul. Now that is for interpretations to be shown with pictures. And I have always considered the gather and was taught by others that when a player stops their dribble, they are gathering the ball. He stopped his dribble in this play and what the hell else is he planning on doing with the ball?

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He stopped his dribble in this play and what the hell else is he planning on doing with the ball?

Peace

Pass to an open teammate. He only started his motion after the whistle.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What does exactly do you think "Has the ball" mean?

If you are dribbling you have the ball right? It also says, "In the official's judgment" right?

Also the usage of the term "gather" is philosophy based as well. It is a way to decide when someone is doing something with the ball and to be consistent. Because even in the definition you mentioned, there was a picture in the S & I book that showed a sequence of when to call a shooting foul. Now that is for interpretations to be shown with pictures. And I have always considered the gather and was taught by others that when a player stops their dribble, they are gathering the ball. He stopped his dribble in this play and what the hell else is he planning on doing with the ball?

Peace

So, let me see if I've got this straight. When they have stopped their dribble for a shot they've gathered but if it is for a travel they've not gathered?

Are you saying there a gap where they not in player control between the dribble and the holding the ball?

[OKREF]

No shot. I have to say, I have never heard the opinion that the shooting motion begins prior to having the ball. That is ludicrous.