Why is this travel?

[Adam]

If a player takes three steps with his hand on the ball and doesn't put another dribble down, I can't imagine I wouldn't call traveling.

[potato]

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

Originally Posted by Adam

If a player takes three steps with his hand on the ball and doesn't put another dribble down, I can't imagine I wouldn't call traveling.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by potato

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

Again, "traveling" is based upon which foot becomes the pivot and what happens next. Not how many steps a player can take. You're looking at it "bassackwards" as another poster delicately stated in another post.

[potato]

i did use pivot foot non pivot foot in my previous post however seems the officials can't determine when the example player ended his dribble & started the step-through, so i used steps to make it clearer. but if you insist on using official terms i'll try:

A1 dribbles, while ball on hand in legal dribbling movement he ran on his left foot then right foot and holds the ball with 2 hands while establishing his left foot which he just landed on as his pivot foot and does a step-through which he lifts off his left pivot foot and steps on his non-pivoting right foot and jumps off his non-pivoting right foot. In this case we can clearly see he did a dribble left foot right foot, ends his dribble establishing his pivot foot and does a step through.

So in sort he did a dribble L,R ->ends dribble L (pivot foot), R shoots

maybe the forum needs to filter out the word step.

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

Again, "traveling" is based upon which foot becomes the pivot and what happens next. Not how many steps a player can take. You're looking at it "bassackwards" as another poster delicately stated in another post.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

.... but if you insist on using official terms i'll try:

...

This a forum for officials to discuss officiating. It's not a place to come to figure out new techniques to use on your street ball buddies.

We are going to discuss what is or isn't illegal based on the rules and using rule book terminology.

Maybe the forum needs to filter you out.

[potato]

i've already pointed out the rules you folks stated that allows unlimited steps taken on a dribble and the rule that allows you to establish a pivot foot and do a step through and am trying to discuss using an example scenario to determine whether it's a legal move or not.

we can't just call it illegal because the official aren't sure when the player ended his dribble and established his pivot.

the norm says we should call it travel if he took more than 3 s***s and shoots however interpretation on the 2 rules shows it's possible allow it if the referee managed to determine when the player ended his dribble & started his pivot/nonpivot steps.

of course i can end this discussion here because almost all places will call it travel should a person take 3 separate st**s before shooting and we just treat it as a norm and ignore the conflicting rules. But is this how officiating works?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This a forum for officials to discuss officiating. It's not a place to come to figure out new techniques to use on your street ball buddies.

We are going to discuss what is or isn't illegal based on the rules and using rule book terminology.

Maybe the forum needs to filter you out.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

...
we can't just call it illegal because the official aren't sure when the player ended his dribble and established his pivot.

...

When a player ends his dribble the official on the ball then needs to determine which is his pivot. Any determination about travelling is based on that, period.

There are specific rules to how jump stops are officiated.

If a players can take 4-5 steps while the ball is touching his hand then the ball has come to rest and his dribble has ended.

I don't know what else you are looking for. Any question you ask about travelling needs to begin with "A1 ends his dribble with **** foot/feet on the floor" (**** = "right", "left", "neither", or "both").

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by potato

we can't just call it illegal because the official aren't sure when the player ended his dribble and established his pivot.

If you're not sure you can't call much of anything. That is what comes with experience in this business, an increased ability to see the play and be sure. You have been told the appropriate rules. If you're really interested, take the time and consider them while on the court. If you're looking for shortcuts and technicalities to use in "Gotcha!" situations in your pickup games, you came to the wrong place.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by potato

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

You're seriously making this way too hard. There are a few things during a game that you can't know what it was until the follow on action.

When a player is dribbling and running, and his hand is sitting on the ball as he slowly brings it down, it seems legal, but if he never puts the ball down, I'm going to judge that he picked up his dribble at the point it sat in his hand. Sometimes you have to see a whole play in order to judge what happened.

I'm telling you in real time, at real speed, if a player is in mid dribble and keeps his hand on the ball for a couple of steps, then instead of putting the ball down for the next dribble, continues for another step and shoots, it's going to look a lot like he ended his dribble three steps before. That's what I'm going to call.

It has nothing to do with a discrepancy between "rules and norms" and everything to do with knowing the rules and how to apply them.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

A dribble is pushing the ball to the ground. If he didn't push the ball to the ground then he wasn't still dribbling.