Why is this travel?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

I'd like to go back to the video again and talk about a couple of things. The T blows for the violation in this play. However, the camera "ball watches" and moves with MJ to the bucket even after the whistle which means the T's signal for violation goes unseen. There is a very brief moment where it looks as though the T gives a quick signal - and to me, it almost looks as though he show "illegal" dribble, as opposed to the traveling mechanic. (IMO, he doesn't use to hands to dribble, but from the T's angle, maybe that is what he saw. I'd be more inclined to go with a carry if I have anything at all).

I'm watching this w/o earphones, so I can't hear what the announcers are saying (as if that would be of any real help). And, the youtube vid title is obviously about MJ taking 5 steps. So, maybe the author of the OP has been misguided from the beginning. Not sure.

Anyone else notice this or have input?

He ended the dribble and started another one. Did he move the pivot in between? Hard to say, but the bottom line is the same.

[potato]

alright guys, let's just leave the extreme number of steps alone.

a 2 steps on a dribble seems normal right?

so let's just assume jordan was dribbling, he took 2 steps while the ball is on the hand with legit dribbling motion, is he allowed to immediately hold the ball, establishing a pivot foot, then steps on his now non-pivot foot and takes off for a layup/dunk?

this in turn would mean a 2 step dribble followed by a 2 step step-through without the ball bouncing on the floor between the 4 steps.

if any kind souls found any videos that shows similar situations it would be great.

[Adam]

Go back to the last sentence of my previous response. That's my answer to you latest question, potato.

[potato]

but if it's just a 2 step dribble, then holding the ball with both hand and does the 2 step step-through it won't be hard to judge when he ended his dribble would he?

in my earlier post & from the video it may be difficult to judge, but if it's just 2+2 or even 1+2 it's much easier to tell right?

[Adam]

If a player takes three steps with his hand on the ball and doesn't put another dribble down, I can't imagine I wouldn't call traveling.

[potato]

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

Originally Posted by Adam

If a player takes three steps with his hand on the ball and doesn't put another dribble down, I can't imagine I wouldn't call traveling.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by potato

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

Again, "traveling" is based upon which foot becomes the pivot and what happens next. Not how many steps a player can take. You're looking at it "bassackwards" as another poster delicately stated in another post.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by potato

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

You're seriously making this way too hard. There are a few things during a game that you can't know what it was until the follow on action.

When a player is dribbling and running, and his hand is sitting on the ball as he slowly brings it down, it seems legal, but if he never puts the ball down, I'm going to judge that he picked up his dribble at the point it sat in his hand. Sometimes you have to see a whole play in order to judge what happened.

I'm telling you in real time, at real speed, if a player is in mid dribble and keeps his hand on the ball for a couple of steps, then instead of putting the ball down for the next dribble, continues for another step and shoots, it's going to look a lot like he ended his dribble three steps before. That's what I'm going to call.

It has nothing to do with a discrepancy between "rules and norms" and everything to do with knowing the rules and how to apply them.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

I with my own instinct would say it's a travel.

but which rule states that you can't. the rule doesn't limit how many steps you can take on each dribble, and that the rule allows 2 steps after you ended the dribble, technically speaking won't it be legal?

you see we are stuck between the norms & written rules, sometimes they don't tally with each other, and if they don't someone needs to redefine the rules. however as we know of it it'd take them 10 years to make an amendment.

A dribble is pushing the ball to the ground. If he didn't push the ball to the ground then he wasn't still dribbling.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by potato

but if it's just a 2 step dribble, then holding the ball with both hand and does the 2 step step-through it won't be hard to judge when he ended his dribble would he?

in my earlier post & from the video it may be difficult to judge, but if it's just 2+2 or even 1+2 it's much easier to tell right?

I know, at this point, that you're just a fan. You seem to care about this stuff, though, even that your questions show a completely backassward way of looking at stuff. And you seem to love the game

I recommend you find a local association, join up, attend some clinics, and ref some games. Not only will this help you truly understand the underpinnings that will allow you to answer your own questions - but it will allow you to stay close to the game from a perspective you'll never get elsewhere. Who knows ... you might even like it enough to stick with it.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I know, at this point, that you're just a fan. You seem to care about this stuff, though, even that your questions show a completely backassward way of looking at stuff. And you seem to love the game

I recommend you find a local association, join up, attend some clinics, and ref some games. Not only will this help you truly understand the underpinnings that will allow you to answer your own questions - but it will allow you to stay close to the game from a perspective you'll never get elsewhere. Who knows ... you might even like it enough to stick with it.

If spud were to become an official, I want to be there when he tells a coach that his player stuck his fleshy butt into the tummy/crouch region of his defender.

[potato]

seems to me you've never seen or believe it's possible to do so?

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

If spud were to become an official, I want to be there when he tells a coach that his player stuck his fleshy butt into the tummy/crouch region of his defender.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He ended the dribble and started another one. Did he move the pivot in between? Hard to say, but the bottom line is the same.

Not necessarily saying he did or didn't end his dribble....if he did, I'm not sure what defined that moment when it ended. What do you have?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

Not necessarily saying he did or didn't end his dribble....if he did, I'm not sure what defined that moment when it ended. What do you have?

The ball came to rest in his hand. This, by definition, ends the dribble.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The ball came to rest in his hand. This, by definition, ends the dribble.

That's what I said in my post.

[QUOTE=#olderthanilook;887114]I'd like to go back to the video again and talk about a couple of things. The T blows for the violation in this play. However, the camera "ball watches" and moves with MJ to the bucket even after the whistle which means the T's signal for violation goes unseen. There is a very brief moment where it looks as though the T gives a quick signal - and to me, it almost looks as though he show "illegal" dribble, as opposed to the traveling mechanic. (IMO, he doesn't use to hands to dribble, but from the T's angle, maybe that is what he saw. I'd be more inclined to go with a carry if I have anything at all).