LaSalle/Ole Miss (Video Added)

[APG]

Originally Posted by zebraman

You don't have to T him. Just turn and say, "that's enough coach" with a stern look and an extended hand. It's funny how we (officials) talk about calling the game the same for the whole 40 minutes and interpreting rules literally. We use it to our defense to defend calls. We make fun of announcers who say, "officials shouldn't decide the game in the last two minutes." But then we say, "I'm not going to worry about the coaches behavior now that it's late and close." Players learn our boundaries and so do coaches. When we change, they will adjust.

A good article that includes some quotes from John Adams about coach behavior:
What to do about coaches behaving badly towards the refs? | Hoop Thoughts | FanNation.com

There's no just turning and telling the coach "that's enough." You're going to have to yell that to a coach that's a considerable amount of distance away from everyone. That or you're going to have to hold up the game to walk over to the coach and address him.

And if we're talking about handling this the same no matter what, I wouldn't expect this to be handle that much differently at any other point in the game. Perhaps if they were on the coach's end of the floor, and official would be there to talk to him...but opposite end of the floor? "That's awful" is tame stuff...but to each their own I suppose.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by APG

There's no just turning and telling the coach "that's enough." You're going to have to yell that to a coach that's a considerable amount of distance away from everyone. That or you're going to have to hold up the game to walk over to the coach and address him.

We can read the coaches lips and they can read ours. Again, just more excuses to not deal with the issue. Much easier to ignore than to deal.

Originally Posted by APG

And if we're talking about handling this the same no matter what, I wouldn't expect this to be handle that much differently at any other point in the game. Perhaps if they were on the coach's end of the floor, and official would be there to talk to him...but opposite end of the floor? "That's awful" is tame stuff...but to each their own I suppose.

To each their own indeed. I'm not going to "teach" a coach that he can be a jackass when he is on the opposite end from me but he has to behave when I'm on his end of the floor. Ridiculous.

What isn't tame stuff? He just reamed the trail and then yelled, "that's awful" 4 times to the point that it even got the TV producer's attention enough for some tight shots. Would he have to say it 15 times? Would have have had to have thrown his jacket at the trail? At what point does it become "disrespectfully addressing an official."

[APG]

Originally Posted by zebraman

We can read the coaches lips and they can read ours. Again, just more excuses to not deal with the issue. Much easier to ignore than to deal.



To each their own indeed. I'm not going to "teach" a coach that he can be a jackass when he is on the opposite end from me but he has to behave when I'm on his end of the floor. Ridiculous.

What isn't tame stuff? He just reamed the trail and then yelled, "that's awful" 4 times to the point that it even got the TV producer's attention enough for some tight shots. Would he have to say it 15 times? Would have have had to have thrown his jacket at the trail? At what point does it become "disrespectfully addressing an official."

That's why we (and especially those officials at that level) get paid the big bucks...being able to appropriately draw the line for the level of competition being worked. I'd venture a guess that this situation would be handled the exact same way by this crew and most other crews. Take that for what it's worth.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by APG

That's why we (and especially those officials at that level) get paid the big bucks...being able to appropriately draw the line for the level of competition being worked. I'd venture a guess that this situation would be handled the exact same way by this crew and most other crews. Take that for what it's worth.

Completely agree. And I hope that John Adams and some of his big dawgs are able to turn the pendulum at some point so that coaches at the D-1 level learn how to address officials respectfully, even when they involved in intense, big games. What has become accepted is not necessarily right.

[canuckrefguy]

My thoughts:

Flop.

Coach is fine.

Not a good reach by the C. Trust your partner.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Completely agree. And I hope that John Adams and some of his big dawgs are able to turn the pendulum at some point so that coaches at the D-1 level learn how to address officials respectfully, even when they involved in intense, big games. What has become accepted is not necessarily right.

Having worked college ball and all my sports, the standards are going to be different for that level than what you see at the high school level. That is not anything new or surprising. I had this conversation with a D1 football official this winter. I do not think anything is drastically going to change and I doubt this situation would be used as an example of over the top behavior. I could be wrong, but something tells me this was hardly mentioned if at all with the evaluator. And someone saying "That's awful" is not in my opinion over the top.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Having worked college ball and all my sports, the standards are going to be different for that level than what you see at the high school level. That is not anything new or surprising. I had this conversation with a D1 football official this winter. I do not think anything is drastically going to change and I doubt this situation would be used as an example of over the top behavior. I could be wrong, but something tells me this was hardly mentioned if at all with the evaluator. And someone saying "That's awful" is not in my opinion over the top.

Peace

I respect your opinion Rut. However, to say that he just said, "that's awful" is simplifying the play. He was absolutely reaming the trail and then stood saying "that's awful" four times knowing full well that everyone in the gym was focused on him during the free throws. I see people throw punches at each other for far less "disrespect" in public, but somehow we officials think that it's OK for someone to publicly denigrate us like that.

I agree that it isn't new or surprising. I do think change is coming.

The NBA's "no tolerance" crackdown is one positive sign. I've seen multiple articles from John Adams about officials needing to have the courage to put up with less from coaches. I am constantly hearing about how sportsmanship is getting worse every year at every level from junior high to college. At some point, the pendulum will go back the other way.

I actually think that some of the impetus might come from the coaches who can control their behavior. They really get tired of watching a jackass on the other bench play the fool without getting penalized.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I respect your opinion Rut. However, to say that he just said, "that's awful" is simplifying the play. He was absolutely reaming the trail and then stood saying "that's awful" four times knowing full well that everyone in the gym was focused on him during the free throws. I see people throw punches at each other for far less "disrespect" in public, but somehow we officials think that it's OK for someone to publicly denigrate us like that.

I agree that it isn't new or surprising. I do think change is coming.

The NBA's "no tolerance" crackdown is one positive sign. I've seen multiple articles from John Adams about officials needing to have the courage to put up with less from coaches. I am constantly hearing about how sportsmanship is getting worse every year at every level from junior high to college. At some point, the pendulum will go back the other way.

I actually think that some of the impetus might come from the coaches who can control their behavior. They really get tired of watching a jackass on the other bench play the fool without getting penalized.

Have to say I agree with this somewhat. I do think that part of this is we, as a whole, also have to shift our mindset in terms of reacting to technical fouls. Too often I am seeing officials criticized by observers or partners for being "too quick", or having to explain whether "there was a way to deal with that without calling a T". Now I'm not really one to talk, I have a pretty slow trigger. But if we're going to "crack down" appropriately, part of that process has to be less second-guessing of T's that are called - aside from ones that are obviously officious or unnecessary, of course.

[JRutledge]

The NCAA did address some issues of sportsmanship, but I do not recall this kind of dialog was addressed. I just do not think this very specific case would have raised many antennas for what the coach was saying. And I really think it is unreasonable to expect a coach that is across the court from the C would be doing anything or even noticing this was said. Now if it is heard in a quiet gym, then OK I can understand your point on some level. I just think most officials in this situation honestly are not paying attention to a coach and certainly not "looking for trouble" as we say around here.

Peace

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I respect your opinion Rut. However, to say that he just said, "that's awful" is simplifying the play. He was absolutely reaming the trail and then stood saying "that's awful" four times knowing full well that everyone in the gym was focused on him during the free throws. I see people throw punches at each other for far less "disrespect" in public, but somehow we officials think that it's OK for someone to publicly denigrate us like that.

Let's clarify a couple of things:
1) you've used the phrase "absolutely reaming the trail" repeatedly...I can only assume that you're basing that on his actions/body language and NOT what he actually said (since only two people - the coach and the Trail - know what was said). There are ways to address this, if you think it's a problem, and a T isn't one of them. Situationally speaking, a Tech at this point DOESN'T make the game better!

2) Very few, if any people in the arena were focused on the coach during the FT's. You are focused on him only because one camera (whose sole focus is reaction shots of game participants) showed his comments. "That's Awful!" x 4 may get addressed in a lower level game, but not in a D1 game - let alone an NCAA Tournament game. Simply put, it's "water off a ducks back".

3) Comparing a basketball game to what happens in "public" is a poor attempt at explaining your viewpoint. The two environments have no relationship with each other in any way, shape, or form. When an actual fight occurs on the court, police are not called to investigate and recommend charges to the local prosecutor.

Overall, I understand your viewpoint. YOU would have addressed/handled, in some form or fashion, the comments/actions of the LaSalle coach. Others on this forum, myself included, would not have considered those comments (which only the Trail heard) or actions (which few, if any, saw) worthy of comment or significant action. In short, this situation would not have interfered with my ability to officiate the remainder of the game. Therefore, I would not have focused much attention on it.