Buzzer Beater. Or Not?

[Bad Zebra]

I'm looking at it full screen...stopping and starting as the play progresses. Shooter collect the pass at :0.4 and unloads. Unfortunately the entire frame is blurred as the clock hits 0.0 and it is impossible to see ball location. It is razor thin as to whether it should count. I'm willing to defer to the officials on the floor here. I don't see it as conclusively "no good".

All that being said, floor positioning of the officials is a debacle. Looks like there was a late rotation at the other end that wasn't picked up. Two LEADS at one point...no center. Makes ya wonder if there was any communication who had last shot.

Another example of why I like to have all three officials have an opinion when it's close.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I'm looking at it full screen...stopping and starting as the play progresses. Shooter collect the pass at :0.4 and unloads. Unfortunately the entire frame is blurred as the clock hits 0.0 and it is impossible to see ball location. It is razor thin as to whether it should count. I'm willing to defer to the officials on the floor here. I don't see it as conclusively "no good".

Agree. Without imagining a much better video, I think it is too hard to make a conclusion one way or other. Some of these video are just not sufficient to tell much.

[BEAREF]

The quality of the video makes it very difficult to read the time on the clock and the position on the ball in relationship to the hand. As has been discussed already the mechanics causes some concern but in the end really has no bearing on the outcome of the call (at least that's my opinion).

I will throw this out for discussion:

From a game management perspective, if it's as razor thin close as it appears in the video, is it better to wave it off and go to OT? Personally, I think waving it off would be an easier "sell" and more acceptable to everyone.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

From a game management perspective, if it's as razor thin close as it appears in the video, is it better to wave it off and go to OT? Personally, I think waving it off would be an easier "sell" and more acceptable to everyone.

NO. imo, of course.

From a game management perspective, be sure the crew knows who is responsible. That person make a call. All officials have an opinion. Get together and if someone else has "100% knowledge" that the call is incorrect change it, otherwise live with it.

[BEAREF]

Here's a little snipet from a newspaper article that describes what transpires just prior to the start of the video.

"MCW had the ball and used a pair of timeouts — one with 19.7 seconds left and another with 7.3 seconds showing — in an attempt to set up a last-second shot.

But a sideline out-of-bounds pass from near halfcourt was stolen by Traylor, who quickly got the ball to Will Mulder as Worthington looked to score in rapid fashion after a sudden change of events."

Now I'm even more perplexed on the positioning of the officials

[paulsonj72]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

3-person isn't mandated in MN.

In the Twin Cities metro area, a couple of conferences require 3-person for varsity games. One conference that I know of uses 3-person for both varsity and JV games.

Some schools schedule 3 officials for their "top tier" varsity games, and 2 officials for the "regular" varsity games.

This season I had 10 2-person varsity, and 4 3-person varsity.

I have no idea if outstate schools (Worthington is in the southwest corner of the state) use 3-person during the regular season or not.

I also don't know if 3-person crews are used in the regular season but in the post-seasson 3-person crews are used from the sub-section semifinal games om this section on. That is the 2nd round and this was a 2nd round game

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by paulsonj72

I also don't know if 3-person crews are used in the regular season but in the post-seasson 3-person crews are used from the sub-section semifinal games om this section on. That is the 2nd round and this was a 2nd round game

So quite possibly these were three guys who had worked few - if any - three person games during the season?

Could explain the positioning issues.

[APG]

Originally Posted by bainsey

If you're going to gather with your partners to discuss the final shot, I don't see how a brief explanation to the coach hurts: "I heard the buzzer after the shot was released, Coach." Or, had it gone the other way, "The ball was still in his hands when the buzzer started, Coach."

I think just bolting off the floor when a coach is looking for an explanation sends the wrong message. What's wrong with keeping it brief, stating what happened, then getting off?

First, I feel pretty confident in saying the shot was no good.

Second, what possible good can come from talking to the coach at this point? What new information can you give to the coach that is going to clarify the situation for him? The coach is going to know what your judgement is by virtue of you counting or waving off the basket.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by bad zebra

i'm looking at it full screen...stopping and starting as the play progresses. Shooter collect the pass at :0.4 and unloads. Unfortunately the entire frame is blurred as the clock hits 0.0 and it is impossible to see ball location. It is razor thin as to whether it should count. I'm willing to defer to the officials on the floor here. I don't see it as conclusively "no good".

All that being said, floor positioning of the officials is a debacle. Looks like there was a late rotation at the other end that wasn't picked up. Two leads at one point...no center. Makes ya wonder if there was any communication who had last shot.

Another example of why i like to have all three officials have an opinion when it's close.

+1

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Another example of why I like to have all three officials have an opinion when it's close.

They not only had an opinion, each of them sold their opinion! The fact that they all signaled a good basket (although only one of them should) makes me think the basket was good.

[icallfouls]

The crew picked a bad time to be out of position and worried about proper rotation. The C should have stayed with play, who cares if they get back into proper position, at this point just stay put and have an opinion on the shot.

The shot was after the buzzer.

The score is tied, just play the OT

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by APG

Second, what possible good can come from talking to the coach at this point? What new information can you give to the coach that is going to clarify the situation for him? The coach is going to know what your judgement is by virtue of you counting or waving off the basket.

I simply believe it's a matter of common courtesy. Assuming the coach hasn't been a jerk or uncivil in this game, I have no problem with a brief word, should he request one (and he probably will). I also don't like the message sent when we high-tail it off the court after any game (unless our safety is in danger), particularly in a situation such as this, where a partner conference was necessary. And bear in mind, you will likely run into that coach again.

JMF mentioned "harms way." Perhaps I just don't see enough harm in my little corner to be concerned about that. If there's a higher chance of danger in your part of Rome, I can certainly see that point.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I simply believe it's a matter of common courtesy. Assuming the coach hasn't been a jerk or uncivil in this game, I have no problem with a brief word, should he request one (and he probably will). I also don't like the message sent when we high-tail it off the court after any game (unless our safety is in danger), particularly in a situation such as this, where a partner conference was necessary. And bear in mind, you will likely run into that coach again.

JMF mentioned "harms way." Perhaps I just don't see enough harm in my little corner to be concerned about that. If there's a higher chance of danger in your part of Rome, I can certainly see that point.

If you feel there might be a need to speak to a coach in this situation you bring the 2 coaches together at the table BEFORE the decision is announced and explain what is about to happen.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you feel there might be a need to speak to a coach in this situation you bring the 2 coaches together at the table BEFORE the decision is announced and explain what is about to happen.

Fair enough but even in this situation I'd say you don't need to. It's a shot at the buzzer that will either win the game or send it into overtime. If either of them isn't sure what is about to happen there's not much I can do about that.

Originally Posted by bainsey

I simply believe it's a matter of common courtesy. Assuming the coach hasn't been a jerk or uncivil in this game, I have no problem with a brief word, should he request one (and he probably will). I also don't like the message sent when we high-tail it off the court after any game (unless our safety is in danger), particularly in a situation such as this, where a partner conference was necessary. And bear in mind, you will likely run into that coach again.

JMF mentioned "harms way." Perhaps I just don't see enough harm in my little corner to be concerned about that. If there's a higher chance of danger in your part of Rome, I can certainly see that point.

It doesn't matter whether they've been a jerk, civil or an absolute angel. It's a potential end-of-game situation. There are two possible decisions and one of them results in his team losing the game immediately, meaning there's a 50% chance he and/or someone connected with his team - including a fan - is going to be very unhappy. There's no reason for the crew to stay out there once the game-ending decision is rendered. None.

The message we're sending when we exit the court is "the game is over." If a coach good enough to get his team to a championship game doesn't understand that, I can't help him. As to whether I run into that coach again: if he's going to be upset with me/my partners after the game and into the future, he's going to be upset regardless of whether we stand there and talk to him.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I simply believe it's a matter of common courtesy. Assuming the coach hasn't been a jerk or uncivil in this game, I have no problem with a brief word, should he request one (and he probably will). I also don't like the message sent when we high-tail it off the court after any game (unless our safety is in danger), particularly in a situation such as this, where a partner conference was necessary. And bear in mind, you will likely run into that coach again.

JMF mentioned "harms way." Perhaps I just don't see enough harm in my little corner to be concerned about that. If there's a higher chance of danger in your part of Rome, I can certainly see that point.

Common courtesy?! Really at this point? The coach was standing there for the entire discussion about 6-8 feet away and he was certainly not going to agree with counting the basket. That was clear from the video. Once the decision was made to score the basket, it is time to leave. Nothing the coach might have said was going to change it. Just another chance to get MF'd off the court.

Coach will figure it out when the referee's are gone.