"Continuous" issues...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't see why officials look for reasons to judge a foul as non-shooting. And it seems they always make a big production of it when selling the call. They have to sell the call so hard b/c they are trying to convince everyone.

As officials we need to pay attention to what's going on in the game. If it's the 4th quarter and the guy who has put up 25 shots already is going to the hole and gets bumped after gathering his dribble do we really think he was intending on passing the ball?

The "on the floor" officials treat the play as if it were the best call of the game.

Nah, it's that crucial three second violation they get that's their best call.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1, 2, 4, and 5 are certainly shooting fouls. 3 probably is but is the only one that may not have been at the time of the actual foul....too close to say on that one.

Originally Posted by APG

I agree...I guess it was more directed toward those that thought play 3 was close.

For the record, the officials in the clip didn't rule this in the act.

Go back and look at what I said on page 1, post 7. I said that i probably is a shooting foul.

I'm just disputing the terminology and justification some are using to say it is. Those elements (gather) do not automatically mean shot when there are other options in the area. It might mean shot, but a pass or nothing is still a possibility.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Go back and look at what I said on page 1, post 7. I said that i probably is a shooting foul.

I'm just disputing the terminology and justification some are using to say it is. Those elements (gather) do not automatically mean shot when there are other options in the area. It might mean shot, but a pass or nothing is still a possibility.

And my post is surprise that it's close for some...that play isn't "probably" a shooting foul IMO...it's clearly and obviously during the act of shooting IMO.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by APG

And my post is surprise that it's close for some...that play isn't "probably" a shooting foul IMO...it's clearly and obviously during the act of shooting IMO.

Guess what.. I just went back and watch it again. I agree.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Guess what.. I just went back and watch it again. I agree.

Me too.

At first viewing, I thought "shooting foul, but I could understand someone who disagreed." Watching it again, I don't think it's all that close.

[Rich]

Let's talk about something reasonably related to this:

When I see contact that likely rises to the level of a foul and I'm being patient and trying to decide whether to put a whistle on it, I'll hold off on the whistle until it's clear to everyone that I'm putting the foul on the shot.

Example: B31 has a hand on the hip of A22. It stays there, guiding A22 away from the bucket. A22 continues to drive and goes up with a shot. I could've whistled a foul anytime along this path, but I decided to hold it until it's clear that B31 isn't taking the hand off...by then, A22 is in the act of shooting. Shooting foul.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm looking for a reason to put it on the shot if I can -- surely I'm not the only one who does this. If I'm calling it before the shot, then it's pretty obvious and I do not feel the need to oversell this (to convince everyone, including myself, that the shooter wasn't shooting).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

Let's talk about something reasonably related to this:

When I see contact that likely rises to the level of a foul and I'm being patient and trying to decide whether to put a whistle on it, I'll hold off on the whistle until it's clear to everyone that I'm putting the foul on the shot.

Example: B31 has a hand on the hip of A22. It stays there, guiding A22 away from the bucket. A22 continues to drive and goes up with a shot. I could've whistled a foul anytime along this path, but I decided to hold it until it's clear that B31 isn't taking the hand off...by then, A22 is in the act of shooting. Shooting foul.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm looking for a reason to put it on the shot if I can -- surely I'm not the only one who does this. If I'm calling it before the shot, then it's pretty obvious and I do not feel the need to oversell this (to convince everyone, including myself, that the shooter wasn't shooting).

I do exactly the same. But if they get the hand off and they continue to the shot after it is gone, you really can't get both the foul and put them on the line. I'm only giving them that if there is fouling contact that continues into the shot.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I do exactly the same. But if they get the hand off and they continue to the shot after it is gone, you really can't get both the foul and put them on the line. I'm only giving them that if there is fouling contact that continues into the shot.

If they get the hand off, then it's gotta be a quick decision on whether to pass entirely or go back to get the foul.

9 times out of 10, I'm probably passing entirely at that point. If it really needed a whistle earlier....

(And this is probably the kind of discussion that confuses newer officials and people that don't officiate.)

[bob jenkins]

That used to be SOP in NCAAW. Then, a couple or three years ago, it became a POE (or at least emphasized at camp, if not an actual POE), to get the foul when it happens and not hold off for the shot on the drive.

So, that's what I try to do now. :shrug:

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Rich

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm looking for a reason to put it on the shot if I can -- surely I'm not the only one who does this. If I'm calling it before the shot, then it's pretty obvious and I do not feel the need to oversell this (to convince everyone, including myself, that the shooter wasn't shooting).

I do the same thing.

[Brad]

1. Borderline
2. Yes
3. No
4. Yes
5. Yes

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Gathering doesn't exist in NFHS. The rule is have they started their habitual shooting motion. During play 3, the foul happens and then the shooting motion begins. They offensive player did not start their shooting motion prior to the foul. In my opinion.

Where does habitual shooting motion start? On a drive it seems it is when the dribble stops and the player picks up the ball. Or catches ball moving to basket. I believe it us supported by rule


6.7 COMMENT:

If an opponent fouls after A1 has started to throw for goal, A1 is permitted to complete the customary arm movement; and, if A1 is pivoting or stepping when A1 or a teammate is fouled, A1 may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity, as long as A1 is still holding the ball.

Comment goes on to say if they dribble it ends the motion

Once they pick up the ball on a drive they have committed to pass or shoot. If thet did not pass they must be shooting...usual foot movement means the normal layup steps...