I'll be Seeing These Guys Tomorrow

[Tim C]

Actually I know quite a bit I AM FAR FROM IGNORANT.

Arrogant (not), cocky yes.

You guys just can't accept an opinion different from your own.

In Oregon I will fight forever to be cost conscience and not support three person crews.

That is my personal opinion and I will retain it.

The problem with these sites is that the officials are very non-receptive of any other opinions than their own.

Cost is an issue. Ignore it if you want but your are pricing yourself out of the market.

I am writing an article right now for High School Today titled "Can We Afford High School Athletics?"

Not sure we can . . .


T

[APG]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Actually I know quite a bit I AM FAR FROM IGNORANT.

Arrogant (not), cocky yes.

You guys just can't accept an opinion different from your own.

In Oregon I will fight forever to be cost conscience and not support three person crews.

That is my personal opinion and I will retain it.

The problem with these sites is that the officials are very non-receptive of any other opinions than their own.

Cost is an issue. Ignore it if you want but your are pricing yourself out of the market.

I am writing an article right now for High School Today titled "Can We Afford High School Athletics?"

Not sure we can . . .


T

Hard to be receptive to an opinion that 3 person is only to cover for lazy officials. No one on an officiating forum is going to be receptive to that. Seriously, what did you expect the response to be?

If your opinion is games in high school should stay 2-person due to cost reasons, that's a lot more reasonable position to take then simply stating that 3 person is just to cover for lazy officials.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Actually I know quite a bit I AM FAR FROM IGNORANT.

Arrogant (not), cocky yes.

You guys just can't accept an opinion different from your own.

In Oregon I will fight forever to be cost conscience and not support three person crews.

That is my personal opinion and I will retain it.

The problem with these sites is that the officials are very non-receptive of any other opinions than their own.

Cost is an issue. Ignore it if you want but your are pricing yourself out of the market.

I am writing an article right now for High School Today titled "Can We Afford High School Athletics?"

Not sure we can . . .


T

You're cocky but not arrogant? Whatever dude....good luck with your writing career.

As APG said if you want to argue the cost for high schools of 3 person vs 2 person that is one you can make but it is entirely different than saying, "all 3 person does is make officials lazy."

And the cost argument is a weak one. If whether or not "we" can afford high school sports" comes down to an extra official for basketball games for a certain school district or area then they probably can't afford scholastic sports. Because to say that is a deciding factor the overall affordability of all scholastic sports is simply ridiculous.

And who is pricing themselves out of the market? I work all 3 person varsity ball and if that were to change I would not officiate HS ball anymore. Another ignorant statement.

[JRutledge]

Really Tim? Really?

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Actually I know quite a bit I AM FAR FROM IGNORANT.

Arrogant (not), cocky yes.

You guys just can't accept an opinion different from your own.

In Oregon I will fight forever to be cost conscience and not support three person crews.

That is my personal opinion and I will retain it.

The problem with these sites is that the officials are very non-receptive of any other opinions than their own.

Cost is an issue. Ignore it if you want but your are pricing yourself out of the market.

I am writing an article right now for High School Today titled "Can We Afford High School Athletics?"

Not sure we can . . .


T

I respect other opinions. I don't respect ignorant a$$ comments.

[stiffler3492]

Just got back from the game. No real issues. A couple times they got all up in arms over one thing or another. Their crowd takes after the coaching staff.

[Tim C]

Having been taken to the woodshed for perhaps the final time I do have another question concerning the OP and the video.

As I am a baseball guy first so why would any official allow the intrusion of assistant coaches at all?

My point would be: As an official that worked upper Division High School Basketball in Oregon/Washington and many college games (that's for you Smitty) in my history why wouldn't one of the officials simply take the head coach (I assume that is the guy in the suit) aside and say: "hey, I am going over to talk to the scorer's table, when I return I want all your assistant coaches to be sitting "quietly" on the bench NOT to stand again. If they are not controlled I will take that as a sigh that you cannot control your bench I will call as many technical fouls as necessary until I DO YOUR JOB!"

As I am a member of the staff of High School today magazine we consider any sporting event to be an extension of the classroom. I have never seen seven teaching assistants in a classroom.

T

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Having been taken to the woodshed for perhaps the final time I do have another question concerning the OP and the video.

As I am a baseball guy first so why would any official allow the intrusion of assistant coaches at all?

My point would be: As an official that worked upper Division High School Basketball in Oregon/Washington and many college games (that's for you Smitty) in my history why wouldn't one of the officials simply take the head coach (I assume that is the guy in the suit) aside and say: "hey, I am going over to talk to the scorer's table, when I return I want all your assistant coaches to be sitting "quietly" on the bench NOT to stand again. If they are not controlled I will take that as a sigh that you cannot control your bench I will call as many technical fouls as necessary until I DO YOUR JOB!"

As I am a member of the staff of High School today magazine we consider any sporting event to be an extension of the classroom. I have never seen seven teaching assistants in a classroom.

T

T,

I don't think any of us are thrilled with how the officials handled the bench and the way those guys are acting. It's part of the reason for the posting of the video.

I am one of those people who work a lot of 2-man and 3-man. When scheduled 2-man, I keep up just fine physically. No problem getting up and down in any game we work.

(The other side is that we have to make decisions based on inferior looks more in 2-man. Some fouls probably would be no-called in 3-man and we'd probably get some we no call with an extra official on the court. It's a compromise.)

These days, it's not the conditioning required to get up and down the floor. It's the fact that physical off-ball play is so much more prevalent now than it was even 26 years ago, when I was getting my start.

To me, there's no reason to work 2 when one more official can make the environment so much safer for the participants at such a small cost.

You may go almost all season without having something happen just off an official's periphery -- and then in that one game, you miss a bad screen or an elbow because of the limitations of a 2-person crew. If that's worth the $660 (at $30 per game based on what I calculated above for 11 homes games, boys and girls) or isn't enough of an incentive to find that $660, then I don't want to hear pissing and moaning when something is missed. We do the best we can.

[jTheUmp]

Consider this situation that happened in one of my games last week:

JV boys. 2nd half. 2-person game. I'm trail, tableside, trapped, double-teamed ball handler A1 at the FT line extended very close to the sideline. My lead is rotated over to the strong side watching a very intense post matchup. Team A coach starts screaming about one of his players getting held at the top of the key.

Which one of us should be looking in that direction?

After the ball ended up going out of bounds off of Team B when A1 attempted to pass to his post player, the conversation went like this:
"Did you seen that hold?"
"No, coach, I didn't."
"Who is looking at that play?"
"Coach, that's the responsibility of the 3rd official who isn't here."
"Oh. Ok."

With that said, I do know a few officials in my association who will only work girls 3-person games because of some age/mobility issues. These are guys who are very good officials and who have officiated for 30+ years including State Finals games in the last few years. It's not because they're lazy, in one guy's case it's due to the fact that his knees are starting to go and he can't handle the extra running that a 2-person game requires. But if I was a coach, I'd want him on my game every time.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Consider this situation that happened in one of my games last week:

JV boys. 2nd half. 2-person game. I'm trail, tableside, trapped, double-teamed ball handler A1 at the FT line extended very close to the sideline. My lead is rotated over to the strong side watching a very intense post matchup. Team A coach starts screaming about one of his players getting held at the top of the key.

Which one of us should be looking in that direction?

After the ball ended up going out of bounds off of Team B when A1 attempted to pass to his post player, the conversation went like this:
"Did you seen that hold?"
"No, coach, I didn't."
"Who is looking at that play?"
"Coach, that's the responsibility of the 3rd official who isn't here."
"Oh. Ok."

With that said, I do know a few officials in my association who will only work girls 3-person games because of some age/mobility issues. These are guys who are very good officials and who have officiated for 30+ years including State Finals games in the last few years. It's not because they're lazy, in one guy's case it's due to the fact that his knees are starting to go and he can't handle the extra running that a 2-person game requires. But if I was a coach, I'd want him on my game every time.

For some reason, it's held up as a badge of honor when officials can run like gazelles up and down the floor. Very few officials with a lot of good experience can run like they could 20+ years ago. Should only the younger officials at peak conditioning be assigned to high level games?

(Don't we make better decisions when we are already in position and not trying to make all decisions on the dead run anyway?)

I doubt the coaches would be happy with that and many officials would be out of the game when their decision-making and situation handling are at their peak.

[Tim C]

"Sure we can, if we're willing to say no to the leaches on the system. But too many politicians can only get reelected by giving them money they take from someone else. The kids only get used as a bargaining chip after they shuffle that money off to guarantee their next vote. Need more money...need more money. NO. Just need to stop giving it away for votes. At over $10,000 per year per kid in most jurisdictions, there should be PLENTY of money to get a great education and have extracurricular activities, but it disappears into a black hole. Everyone seems to be claiming they're not getting it, but someone is."

Cameron:

I respect your answer but follow my logic.

If you go to the Mast Head of High School Today you will see that I am on the publication committee and I am on the committee to represent ALL CONTEST OFFICIALS. That's the only reason I am qualified to be on the magazine.

That being said many of us at an administrative level feel that high school sports may be in trouble.

8,000 high school "futball" players have left high school teams in the mid-west to play Club Sport (AAU type) soccer.

More and more players are taking their AAU basketball skills to non-traditional venues.

High school football must change from to simply a contact sport OR insurance companies will no longer cover the damages of head injuries.

Many high school baseball coaches in Oregon have given up there life long dream of coaching high school baseball because the pressures of fund raising to keep their sport alive has damaged there home/family life.

Cameron I hate to see where things maybe headed but we need to keep an eye on the direction things are headed.

Thoughtful reply Cameron and I appreciate it.

T

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Cameron:

I respect your answer but follow my logic.

If you go to the Mast Head of High School Today you will see that I am on the publication committee and I am on the committee to represent ALL CONTEST OFFICIALS. That's the only reason I am qualified to be on the magazine.

That being said many of us at an administrative level feel that high school sports may be in trouble.

8,000 high school "futball" players have left high school teams in the mid-west to play Club Sport (AAU type) soccer.

More and more players are taking their AAU basketball skills to non-traditional venues.

High school football must change from to simply a contact sport OR insurance companies will no longer cover the damages of head injuries.

Many high school baseball coaches in Oregon have given up there life long dream of coaching high school baseball because the pressures of fund raising to keep their sport alive has damaged there home/family life.

Cameron I hate to see where things maybe headed but we need to keep an eye on the direction things are headed.

Thoughtful reply Cameron and I appreciate it.

T

Tim- While I obviously take issue with your characterizations of 3 person officiating, I think the larger point you raise is very interesting and respect your position with NFHS's publication.

As a graduate student in my sports management program I had the opportunity to travel to the Netherlands and Germany and study the European model of sport. The club model is very different from the scholastic model and addresses many of the financial concerns you seem to be talking about related to high school sports.

I'm not suggesting that's the best model for us here in America but if the conversation you want to have is "can we afford high school sports" then that's something we should be looking at.

Having worked briefly in both high school and college athletic administration I do have some first hand knowledge of athletic budgets and related issues. And IMO to characterize using 3 person vs 2 person basketball officiating crews as a cost prohibitive factor within the larger context of athletic budgets is very short sighted and in most cases, simply not true.

[JRutledge]

All ignorance means (as people tend to take offense to the word without knowing the meaning) is that you are unaware and not knowledgable of something. It does not mean that you are stupid or cannot be educated. But when you clearly make statements about a system you have never worked and try to equate it to only covering for a lazy official, well that is rather ignorant. I am sure Tim would not suggest that 4 man in baseball is covering for 2 lazy umpires when the game can be covered with 2. That would be ignorant if someone made that statement about baseball.

And unless I am missing something, most schools only play around 25 games a year in basketball. Maybe 10 of those games are at home. So if you are paying an official at $60 an official and in those 10 games that only comes to $600 a year. A school is not paying officials for the tournaments or shootouts away from the school. And usually those types of events have sponsors and part of the cost of the tournament is added in the cost of the officials and at least around here is not always held by a school and has a big sponsor or sponsors to cover the cost of many things in that tournament. And that does not include when you have safety used for everything, we want officials to see the end of plays where things can get rough or flagrant acts would be better seen clearly and use two officials that have to constantly focus on the ball and have dual areas where we miss more than half the court at times. I think Booster Clubs can raise $600 for basketball to cover their costs if needed. And if not sponsors can cover costs as well. But if that $600 or $1000 is too much to cripple a high school program, then you probably should not have the program in the first place considering all the other costs that are associated with sports.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All ignorance means (as people tend to take offense to the word without knowing the meaning) is that you are unaware and not knowledgable of something. It does not mean that you are stupid or cannot be educated. But when you clearly make statements about a system you have never worked and try to equate it to only covering for a lazy official, well that is rather ignorant. I am sure Tim would not suggest that 4 man in baseball is covering for 2 lazy umpires when the game can be covered with 2. That would be ignorant if someone made that statement about baseball.

And unless I am missing something, most schools only play around 25 games a year in basketball. Maybe 10 of those games are at home. So if you are paying an official at $60 an official and in those 10 games that only comes to $600 a year. A school is not paying officials for the tournaments or shootouts away from the school. And usually those types of events have sponsors and part of the cost of the tournament is added in the cost of the officials and at least around here is not always held by a school and has a big sponsor or sponsors to cover the cost of many things in that tournament. And that does not include when you have safety used for everything, we want officials to see the end of plays where things can get rough or flagrant acts would be better seen clearly and use two officials that have to constantly focus on the ball and have dual areas where we miss more than half the court at times. I think Booster Clubs can raise $600 for basketball to cover their costs if needed. And if not sponsors can cover costs as well. But if that $600 or $1000 is too much to cripple a high school program, then you probably should not have the program in the first place considering all the other costs that are associated with sports.

Peace

The same schools that can't afford a third official sure seem to have new uniforms all the time. It's priorities. We're not near the top of the list.

[fullor30]

Regarding the excuse of not enough money for three man crews, ever look around a game and notice how many staff bodies there are from schools who act as whatever?

I think it's safe to say they could cut back on the 8,9,10 + folks who I'm sure are making at least if not more than we are.

Elimanate one, and you have a three man crew.