I'll be Seeing These Guys Tomorrow

[stiffler3492]

Just got back from the game. No real issues. A couple times they got all up in arms over one thing or another. Their crowd takes after the coaching staff.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tim C

All 3 person crew does is cover for lazy officials.

Work the game and all will be find.

And you are right . .. I retired long before three person crews. I just know what I see.

let's work four person crews so we really cover anything . . . how about five person crews with a person just managing the bench area.

Soft.

Like I already said,

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I am writing an article right now for High School Today titled "Can We Afford High School Athletics?"

Not sure we can . . .

Sure we can, if we're willing to say no to the leaches on the system. But too many politicians can only get reelected by giving them money they take from someone else. The kids only get used as a bargaining chip after they shuffle that money off to guarantee their next vote. Need more money...need more money. NO. Just need to stop giving it away for votes. At over $10,000 per year per kid in most jurisdictions, there should be PLENTY of money to get a great education and have extracurricular activities, but it disappears into a black hole. Everyone seems to be claiming they're not getting it, but someone is.

[Nevadaref]

I think that Tim C has a point. If one will take a look at the level of play and the level of officiating in his/her respective area and objectively ask which games warrant a third a third official, we may be able to have a civil an informative dialogue on this topic.
I can tell you my experience is that NV uses 3-man on probably 75% of varsity games for both boys and girls and that about 85% of those boys games and 95% of the girls games don't need the 3rd official. That is likely different in Vegas on the boys side.
For CA almost every game is 2-man and the quality of play is significantly higher, plus there is a shot clock. CA doesn't use 3 until after the first two rounds of the playoffs. I have far more games in CA for which it would be helpful to have another person on the crew.
Some people won't like me writing this, but I know several officials who are physically unfit and could not do a decent job in the 2-man system yet perform just fine in 3-person because the amount of movement required is so much less.

When the majority of the officials in an area fall into this category, it puts the administrators in a difficult situation. The leaders of the local officials association, the coaches, the school ADs, and those in the state office must consider what those working as officials are physically capable of and how that will impact the kids when choosing between 2 and 3. If a large number of officials will simply quit should the choice be made to use 2-person crews, the decision makers must understand the shortage this will cause as well as who will be available and capable of working the games.
Right now I don't think that my area could change to 2-man successfully. By that I mean be able to supply enough officials who are physically capable of handling the games properly. By keeping 3-person the area makes a trade off. They greatly enlarge the pool of those who are capable of providing what is needed, but pay a little bit more for it. Afterall these are HIGH SCHOOL officials. This is not the NBA or even college at which the officials make thousands of dollars. These are people who do this in their spare time and come to the games after working a full day doing something else. I believe that it is unreasonable to expect most of them to be 30-45 year olds in prime physical condition. You will have several who are much older and several who are significantly overweight. I believe that the 2-man vs 3-man debate must acknowledge what an area has to choose from. Some people are capable of doing certain things and others just aren't. Asking them to do what they can't and then complaining about it when they don't is truly absurd.
I don't believe that NV will switch back to 2-man because of the Vegas area having the need for 3 and thus it will remain statewide. However, this certainly opens the door for what Tim C called the "lazy officials" to work games. Perhaps that is why there are so many complaints about 3-person.
It has nothing to do with the system itself. 3-man is obviously superior to 2-man when done properly on the the necessary games. It has everything to do with who is out there and what perception that gives to those making the observations.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Tim C

OK, Oregon uses two person crews for all games at all times for all genders completely through the state championship games.

Cameron will come here and will say he sees a change coming (that means for the first time Oregon has developed a committee to review going to 3 person crews) the sticking point is Title 9 and GV.

As an ex-basketball official (for 25 years) I see no advantage at all in the extra official in 99% of high school games that I have observed over the past five years.

Just sayin"

T

I worked in Portland for 8 years - before that several years in California and other states - all 2 man. I didn't know anything about 3-man so I figured 2-man was just fine. Then I moved to Texas and learned 3-man and work both 2 and 3-man depending on the size of the schools involved. There's NO WAY that 2-man is sufficient. I hate working 2-man for any boys varsity game. It's impossible to see everything.

One thing I will say is that the level of talent in Oregon is lower than some of the other areas I've been. Certainly here in Dallas, the talent and skill level is significantly higher than in Portland. So I can see why someone who has never worked 3-man would have the illusion that 2-man is enough, but I do not see how anyone would be so arrogant as to admonish 3-man when they have never worked it, or have never worked high level boys basketball.

[Tim C]

Having been taken to the woodshed for perhaps the final time I do have another question concerning the OP and the video.

As I am a baseball guy first so why would any official allow the intrusion of assistant coaches at all?

My point would be: As an official that worked upper Division High School Basketball in Oregon/Washington and many college games (that's for you Smitty) in my history why wouldn't one of the officials simply take the head coach (I assume that is the guy in the suit) aside and say: "hey, I am going over to talk to the scorer's table, when I return I want all your assistant coaches to be sitting "quietly" on the bench NOT to stand again. If they are not controlled I will take that as a sigh that you cannot control your bench I will call as many technical fouls as necessary until I DO YOUR JOB!"

As I am a member of the staff of High School today magazine we consider any sporting event to be an extension of the classroom. I have never seen seven teaching assistants in a classroom.

T

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Having been taken to the woodshed for perhaps the final time I do have another question concerning the OP and the video.

As I am a baseball guy first so why would any official allow the intrusion of assistant coaches at all?

My point would be: As an official that worked upper Division High School Basketball in Oregon/Washington and many college games (that's for you Smitty) in my history why wouldn't one of the officials simply take the head coach (I assume that is the guy in the suit) aside and say: "hey, I am going over to talk to the scorer's table, when I return I want all your assistant coaches to be sitting "quietly" on the bench NOT to stand again. If they are not controlled I will take that as a sigh that you cannot control your bench I will call as many technical fouls as necessary until I DO YOUR JOB!"

As I am a member of the staff of High School today magazine we consider any sporting event to be an extension of the classroom. I have never seen seven teaching assistants in a classroom.

T

T,

I don't think any of us are thrilled with how the officials handled the bench and the way those guys are acting. It's part of the reason for the posting of the video.

I am one of those people who work a lot of 2-man and 3-man. When scheduled 2-man, I keep up just fine physically. No problem getting up and down in any game we work.

(The other side is that we have to make decisions based on inferior looks more in 2-man. Some fouls probably would be no-called in 3-man and we'd probably get some we no call with an extra official on the court. It's a compromise.)

These days, it's not the conditioning required to get up and down the floor. It's the fact that physical off-ball play is so much more prevalent now than it was even 26 years ago, when I was getting my start.

To me, there's no reason to work 2 when one more official can make the environment so much safer for the participants at such a small cost.

You may go almost all season without having something happen just off an official's periphery -- and then in that one game, you miss a bad screen or an elbow because of the limitations of a 2-person crew. If that's worth the $660 (at $30 per game based on what I calculated above for 11 homes games, boys and girls) or isn't enough of an incentive to find that $660, then I don't want to hear pissing and moaning when something is missed. We do the best we can.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Ignorance and arrogance.

Nice combo.

Not really. He's expressing his observations - there's nothing arrogant about that at all. He says that HE sees no difference. I, for one, completely believe that.

[jTheUmp]

Consider this situation that happened in one of my games last week:

JV boys. 2nd half. 2-person game. I'm trail, tableside, trapped, double-teamed ball handler A1 at the FT line extended very close to the sideline. My lead is rotated over to the strong side watching a very intense post matchup. Team A coach starts screaming about one of his players getting held at the top of the key.

Which one of us should be looking in that direction?

After the ball ended up going out of bounds off of Team B when A1 attempted to pass to his post player, the conversation went like this:
"Did you seen that hold?"
"No, coach, I didn't."
"Who is looking at that play?"
"Coach, that's the responsibility of the 3rd official who isn't here."
"Oh. Ok."

With that said, I do know a few officials in my association who will only work girls 3-person games because of some age/mobility issues. These are guys who are very good officials and who have officiated for 30+ years including State Finals games in the last few years. It's not because they're lazy, in one guy's case it's due to the fact that his knees are starting to go and he can't handle the extra running that a 2-person game requires. But if I was a coach, I'd want him on my game every time.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Consider this situation that happened in one of my games last week:

JV boys. 2nd half. 2-person game. I'm trail, tableside, trapped, double-teamed ball handler A1 at the FT line extended very close to the sideline. My lead is rotated over to the strong side watching a very intense post matchup. Team A coach starts screaming about one of his players getting held at the top of the key.

Which one of us should be looking in that direction?

After the ball ended up going out of bounds off of Team B when A1 attempted to pass to his post player, the conversation went like this:
"Did you seen that hold?"
"No, coach, I didn't."
"Who is looking at that play?"
"Coach, that's the responsibility of the 3rd official who isn't here."
"Oh. Ok."

With that said, I do know a few officials in my association who will only work girls 3-person games because of some age/mobility issues. These are guys who are very good officials and who have officiated for 30+ years including State Finals games in the last few years. It's not because they're lazy, in one guy's case it's due to the fact that his knees are starting to go and he can't handle the extra running that a 2-person game requires. But if I was a coach, I'd want him on my game every time.

For some reason, it's held up as a badge of honor when officials can run like gazelles up and down the floor. Very few officials with a lot of good experience can run like they could 20+ years ago. Should only the younger officials at peak conditioning be assigned to high level games?

(Don't we make better decisions when we are already in position and not trying to make all decisions on the dead run anyway?)

I doubt the coaches would be happy with that and many officials would be out of the game when their decision-making and situation handling are at their peak.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not really. He's expressing his observations - there's nothing arrogant about that at all. He says that HE sees no difference. I, for one, completely believe that.

All 3 person crew does is cover for lazy officials.



And you are right . .. I retired long before three person crews. I just know what I see.

"Soft."

These are the comments I referred to as ignorant and arrogant.

Having never worked 3-man he is apparently ignorant to the benefits of it when he makes the statement, "ALL it does is cover for lazy officials." That is pure ignorance. Plain and simple.

He's entitled to his opinion and observation that he sees no difference. And you can believe it all you want as well.

But to say that ALL 3 person does is cover for lazy officials and that it's "soft" is ignorance and, combined with some of his other comments, arrogant as well.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

These are the comments I referred to as ignorant and arrogant.

Having never worked 3-man he is apparently ignorant to the benefits of it when he makes the statement, "ALL it does is cover for lazy officials." That is pure ignorance. Plain and simple.

He's entitled to his opinion and observation that he sees no difference. And you can believe it all you want as well.

But to say that ALL 3 person does is cover for lazy officials and that it's "soft" is ignorance and, combined with some of his other comments, arrogant as well.

Saying Tim C arrogant and ignorant is you expressing your opinion based on observations.

I completely believe that.

[Tim C]

"Sure we can, if we're willing to say no to the leaches on the system. But too many politicians can only get reelected by giving them money they take from someone else. The kids only get used as a bargaining chip after they shuffle that money off to guarantee their next vote. Need more money...need more money. NO. Just need to stop giving it away for votes. At over $10,000 per year per kid in most jurisdictions, there should be PLENTY of money to get a great education and have extracurricular activities, but it disappears into a black hole. Everyone seems to be claiming they're not getting it, but someone is."

Cameron:

I respect your answer but follow my logic.

If you go to the Mast Head of High School Today you will see that I am on the publication committee and I am on the committee to represent ALL CONTEST OFFICIALS. That's the only reason I am qualified to be on the magazine.

That being said many of us at an administrative level feel that high school sports may be in trouble.

8,000 high school "futball" players have left high school teams in the mid-west to play Club Sport (AAU type) soccer.

More and more players are taking their AAU basketball skills to non-traditional venues.

High school football must change from to simply a contact sport OR insurance companies will no longer cover the damages of head injuries.

Many high school baseball coaches in Oregon have given up there life long dream of coaching high school baseball because the pressures of fund raising to keep their sport alive has damaged there home/family life.

Cameron I hate to see where things maybe headed but we need to keep an eye on the direction things are headed.

Thoughtful reply Cameron and I appreciate it.

T

[Tio]

My 2 cents:

This is why you stay away from benches. There is absolutely no excuse for this much dialog.

"Coach, maybe I missed the play." Then walk away from the situation.

The approach by the crew was very confrontational and only made a bad situation worse.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Cameron:

I respect your answer but follow my logic.

If you go to the Mast Head of High School Today you will see that I am on the publication committee and I am on the committee to represent ALL CONTEST OFFICIALS. That's the only reason I am qualified to be on the magazine.

That being said many of us at an administrative level feel that high school sports may be in trouble.

8,000 high school "futball" players have left high school teams in the mid-west to play Club Sport (AAU type) soccer.

More and more players are taking their AAU basketball skills to non-traditional venues.

High school football must change from to simply a contact sport OR insurance companies will no longer cover the damages of head injuries.

Many high school baseball coaches in Oregon have given up there life long dream of coaching high school baseball because the pressures of fund raising to keep their sport alive has damaged there home/family life.

Cameron I hate to see where things maybe headed but we need to keep an eye on the direction things are headed.

Thoughtful reply Cameron and I appreciate it.

T

Tim- While I obviously take issue with your characterizations of 3 person officiating, I think the larger point you raise is very interesting and respect your position with NFHS's publication.

As a graduate student in my sports management program I had the opportunity to travel to the Netherlands and Germany and study the European model of sport. The club model is very different from the scholastic model and addresses many of the financial concerns you seem to be talking about related to high school sports.

I'm not suggesting that's the best model for us here in America but if the conversation you want to have is "can we afford high school sports" then that's something we should be looking at.

Having worked briefly in both high school and college athletic administration I do have some first hand knowledge of athletic budgets and related issues. And IMO to characterize using 3 person vs 2 person basketball officiating crews as a cost prohibitive factor within the larger context of athletic budgets is very short sighted and in most cases, simply not true.