Last seconds of Georgia at Arkansas

[canuckrefguy]

That first play is a travel - and not a ticky-tack one, either.

Good no-call on the second play - defender is in his position before shooter leaves the floor, but only minimal side contact. Play on.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by APG

Play one is bang bang as to whether the right foot came down before the ball was released...as such, I wouldn't called a travel and wouldn't expect it to be called a travel (and for the matter, I have left foot as the pivot foot as I have a gather with both feet on the floor).

Play two, wish we had another angle...if I HAD to guess, I'd say it was a blocking foul.

That is what I have too.

Thanks for posting.

Peace

[Raymond]

Travel. You cannot play defense when the ball handler is allowed to pick up then replant his pivot foot.

No call on next play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by APG

I have the gather with both feet on the floor...followed by a step with the right foot...so it's relevant IMO.

Show me the definition of "gather"? All we've got is holding the ball or not.

At the point shown below, his dribble had ended by catching the ball in one hand (if he dribbled again after this it would be a carry). It doesn't take two hands on the ball to hold the ball.



The left foot is off the floor making his right foot the pivot when the left foot touches.

To allow the foot movement in this play is just not intended by the rules. It might be fair to say that some, even many, officials might not see it and call it, but it is incorrect to say it isn't a travel.

[just another ref]

This really wasn't close to being legal.

[JRutledge]

You cannot take a picture and then make assumptions based only on the picture. Sorry Camron but that almost never works as what happened right before or I could make a case that the player had not gathered yet.

Peace

[just another ref]

No assumptions here about anything. This picture is just the highlight of what the video clearly shows.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No assumptions here about anything. This picture is just the highlight of what the video clearly shows.

Gathering the ball is an overall action, not a split second moment. All the picture shows is a ball kind of in the hand, but not necessarily in control or the moment a pivot foot or pivot feet have been established. Like I tell fans, you cannot show me a picture and tell the story of what was called or not called. Why is this picture so special?

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Gathering the ball is an overall action, not a split second moment. All the picture shows is a ball kind of in the hand, but not necessarily in control or the moment a pivot foot or pivot feet have been established. Like I tell fans, you cannot show me a picture and tell the story of what was called or not called. Why is this picture so special?

Peace

The picture appears to show the ball resting in the player's hand with the right foot firmly on the floor, thus establishing it as the pivot. Yes, a still picture such as this can be deceptive. He could have been bobbling the ball.

But, in this case, we've seen the entire video. It isn't. He wasn't.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The picture appears to show the ball resting in the player's hand with the right foot firmly on the floor, thus establishing it as the pivot. Yes, a still picture such as this can be deceptive. He could have been bobbling the ball.

But, in this case, we've seen the entire video. It isn't. He wasn't.

The key word, "appears." I do not see any definite control and I would not consider that action alone a gather until the players brought the ball with both hands on some level. And once again, was this picture taken after the gather or before the gather. Either way if your argument is that this picture proves something, it does not in my mind. It might have been a travel, but it was not called, so someone judged it was not illegal whether you agree with the call or not.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The key word, "appears." I do not see any definite control and I would not consider that action alone a gather until the players brought the ball with both hands on some level.

No rule support for this. It is possible to catch the ball in one hand. In this particular case, the ball comes to rest in the one hand. Player has both hands on it a split second later.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No rule support for this. It is possible to catch the ball in one hand. In this particular case, the ball comes to rest in the one hand. Player has both hands on it a split second later.

Please.

There is no rules support that what was shown in the picture was control of the ball either. Better yet, where is the definition for catch in the rulebook? And in the video he brought both hands together on the ball as he was spinning.

Not everything needs a definition to know when to determine control takes place and it is still a judgment call. I do not see definitive control in this picture and why pictures are terrible to show what took place with a game in constant motion. If you need rules support for everything, then officiating is going to be very difficult. You even said your self this could have been a bobble.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Please.

There is no rules support that what was shown in the picture was control of the ball either. Better yet, where is the definition for catch in the rulebook? And in the video he brought both hands together on the ball as he was spinning.

Not everything needs a definition to know when to determine control takes place and it is still a judgment call. I do not see definitive control in this picture and why pictures are terrible to show what took place with a game in constant motion. If you need rules support for everything, then officiating is going to be very difficult. You even said your self this could have been a bobble.

Peace

At some moment, the dribble ends. How does it end? It ends by the player catching the ball with one or both hands. In the above case, when does it end? Would you think is legal for the player in the still shot to then turn the ball back over and dribble again? No....at least I hope not. Why? Because he has ended the dribble by catching the ball. And to dribble again would be an illegal dribble (also known as a carry...which only happens when they hold the ball mid-dribble).

There is no such thing as gathering and the rules do not go anywhere near what you are trying to suggest. There is nothing about two hands being required to be holding the ball. There is also no magical window between when the dribble ends and when the player starts holding the ball. It transitions directly from one to the other.

Dance around it all you want, but you're making up your own rules when you bring "gather" and "two hands" into what is required to be holding the ball.

The moment the dribble ends is when the foot restrictions begin.

[JRutledge]

Well considering that a dribble is done with one hand legally and players tend to have to "stop" the dribble on some level while using one hand. But since he brings the ball to both hands, that is the time I would consider more of a gather. Before that time he is attempting to gather the ball.

And there is such a thing as gathering as it is when someone is trying to catch the ball. Just because you do not have a pretty little definition does not mean it would not apply. And when we have no definition of a catch in basketball either like other sports, then when they actually catch the ball with your logic also is up for debate. As I said, I see both feet on the floor when the finally catches the ball and either foot can be the pivot at that time.

Sometimes we have to officiate and always expecting every rule to cover all situations and examples is silly.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well considering that a dribble is done with one hand legally and players tend to have to "stop" the dribble on some level while using one hand. But since he brings the ball to both hands, that is the time I would consider more of a gather. Before that time he is attempting to gather the ball.

And there is such a thing as gathering as it is when someone is trying to catch the ball. Just because you do not have a pretty little definition does not mean it would not apply. And when we have no definition of a catch in basketball either like other sports, then when they actually catch the ball with your logic also is up for debate. As I said, I see both feet on the floor when the finally catches the ball and either foot can be the pivot at that time.

Sometimes we have to officiate and always expecting every rule to cover all situations and examples is silly.

Peace

The point remains that the dribble ends, by definition, the moment the holding begins. The dribble is stopped by "holding" the ball in one or both hands. To introduce anything else is, by rule, just not correct.

You can't introduce football concepts where a catch needs to be defined (because whether the pass is complete or not depends on it) into basketball where it just doesn't apply.

If the player committed a foul at that moment, would it be a player control foul? If you say yes, that means they are either holding the ball or dribbling the ball. There are no other choices. If you're not going to let them dribble again, that means the dribble has ended and they are holding the ball. If you say no, then you have introduced even more made-up rules that will require another discussion.