VC coaching in stands...

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BigT

Had this happen a few times this year and I can't seem to find a rule or just need counsel.

I am working a Soph/JV game and happen to know the VC. He hit me in a college camp parking lot. He is sitting on the opposite bench area coaching his kids. He also would occasionally throw a fit on what he deemed a missed call.

What are the penalty s if any or advice on how to handle him.

Saw a similar situation a few years ago during parts of the second half of the JV game. The varsity coach would come out of his lockerroom to sit in the opposite end of the bleachers from the JV team coaching players when he had the opportunity. This obviously caught the attention of the nearby opposing JV coach who rightfully felt disadvantaged that the other team was receiving coaching instructions at both ends of the gym. The officials felt unsure if they could do anything about it. We had a chance to discuss briefly before the varsity game and my opinion to them was, and still is, that in this situation (JV/V game) the varsity coach is not a "fan" but is clearly defined in 4-34 and the performance of any of his duties should be done within the bench location provided by game management. (1-13-1) I don't have a problem if the coach is just watching the game; but if he is going to coach players and have occasional fits over calls then he is subject to penalties under bench personnel. If we were to turn this around, would we allow this in the varsity game if an assistant or JV coach were to position himself at the opposite end of the bleachers calling out plays or defensive alignments?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigT

The varsity coach is not a "fan" but is clearly defined in 4-34 and the performance of any of his duties should be done within the bench location provided by game management.

Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s).

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s).

Yes, but they don't sit in the stands.

They sit on the bench or right behind the bench depending on the school or at the scorers table.

They aren't on the other end of the gym, or across the court, or in the bleachers, or the hallway, in a car, at home watching the game on tv.

Using that citation you are stretching the rule to a limit that IMO is not going to hold up.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes, but they don't sit in the stands.

Agree, but the definition doesn't say that.

If a basketball coach of the program that I'm officiating a game for is sitting in the stands and coaching and giving me some grief, I hope that the rules would allow me to treat him a little bit differently than a regular fan that is sitting in the stands and giving me some grief. I can ignore unruly fans, or have them removed for outrageous action. Coaches should be held to a higher standard than that, and I don't think that they should be ignored like we often do with fans.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, but the definition doesn't say that.

If a basketball coach of the program that I'm officiating a game for is sitting in the stands and coaching and giving me some grief, I hope that the rules would allow me to treat him a little bit differently than a regular fan that is sitting in the stands and giving me some grief. I can ignore unruly fans, or have them removed for outrageous action. Coaches should be held to a higher standard than that, and I don't think that they should be ignored like we often do with fans.

Why should coaches be held to a higher standard? If you think that then you believe that everyone involved in youth sports is in it only for the kids.

Ideally I would like to agree with you but in reality that's just not practical. The only people I consider coaches during a game I work are the ones on the bench.


Plus I'm not sure what the rules are but you toss someone from the facility they usually cannot return for the remainder of the day. If I had a varsity game and the JV guys before me tell me they tossed someone from the stands and it turned out to be the HC I would be inclined to not allow him back in the facility.

My reasoning would be that if it were NOT the HC that person would not be allowed back in, so why should things change because the HC decided to act like an A$$.

Generally where I have worked SoCal, if someone is removed from the facility they cannot return for at least 24 hours.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Why should coaches be held to a higher standard?

A coach, who coached the 4:00 p.m. freshman game, hangs around and watches my varsity game, and yells at me, yells things that would have earned him a technical foul, maybe even an early shower, in his freshman game, but things that would not normally, or usually, get him thrown out of the gymnasium as a "regular" fan. I can't imagine my assigner, his athletic director, his school principal, or our state interscholastic sports governing body, not wanting to somehow deal with that coach. All these people, in my opinion, would hold him to a higher standard, I'm just not sure that the NFHS, and the officials that officiate under those rules, would, or should, hold him to the higher standard as well.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A coach, who coached the 4:00 p.m. freshman game, hangs around and watches my varsity game, and yells at me, yells things that would have earned him a technical foul, maybe even an early shower, in his freshman game, but things that would not normally, or usually, get him thrown out of the gymnasium as a "regular" fan. I can't imagine my assigner, his athletic director, his school principal, or our state interscholastic sports governing body, not wanting to somehow deal with that coach. All these people, in my opinion, would hold him to a higher standard, I'm just not sure that the NFHS, and the officials that officiate under those rules, would, or should, hold him to the higher standard as well.

I would inform their AD and my assignor of this and let them adjudicate penaltie(s). I will not.

[APG]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Saw a similar situation a few years ago during parts of the second half of the JV game. The varsity coach would come out of his lockerroom to sit in the opposite end of the bleachers from the JV team coaching players when he had the opportunity. This obviously caught the attention of the nearby opposing JV coach who rightfully felt disadvantaged that the other team was receiving coaching instructions at both ends of the gym. The officials felt unsure if they could do anything about it. We had a chance to discuss briefly before the varsity game and my opinion to them was, and still is, that in this situation (JV/V game) the varsity coach is not a "fan" but is clearly defined in 4-34 and the performance of any of his duties should be done within the bench location provided by game management. (1-13-1) I don't have a problem if the coach is just watching the game; but if he is going to coach players and have occasional fits over calls then he is subject to penalties under bench personnel. If we were to turn this around, would we allow this in the varsity game if an assistant or JV coach were to position himself at the opposite end of the bleachers calling out plays or defensive alignments?

Coaching players and having the occasional fit over calls? That sounds exactly like a fan.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by APG

Coaching players and having the occasional fit over calls? That sounds exactly like a fan.

Nope. It was a coach performing exactly like a coach, only well-outside the bench area designated by game management and maybe three rows up.

[TimTaylor]

Fans?....What fans?

They are GM's responsibility. I'm not going to get involved unless they do something to disrupt the game - at that point I'll ask GM to take care of it, and stop the game if necessary while they do so. In my experience, GM is almost always on top of these situations and dealing with it long before we would ever have to get involved.

As to the situation described, if the VC coach is simply in the stands and not on or in the immediate area of the team bench(i.e. row behind if bench is first row of the bleachers), they're a fan and are GM's responsibility. I'm not going to get involved unless they do something to disrupt the game. If the opposing coach has an issue with someone in the stands "coaching", they need to take it up with GM, or through their AD with the state association. Unless/until the state association tells us otherwise, it's not our responsibility. Just my $0.02.......

[Forksref]

We have one school in our area where the varsity coach and JV coach sit on the end of the bench during the sophomore game. They often say something to the officials during that game. This is very bush-league. The JV coach got a T for his efforts one game. When I was coaching varsity ball, I had more important things to do than that! I was more concerned about how they were playing the game and how they were being coached.