Post pushing (video)

[packersowner]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Right hand around the waist, left arm over the shoulder, and defender pulls the offensive player backward. That's the one that needs to be gotten. None of the rest of that garbage happens then.

Missed my point - right hand around the waist? Was that because the defender was backing into him? There is no way on the video to tell if that is where contact happened by the defender. Left arm over the shoulder? When the player moves from the offensive players right side to the left side, the defensive player reaches over the top of the offensive players left arm, this is not illegal. What's illegal is when the offensive player starts to reach to hold the defensive player and the defensive player than grabs and the pulls the offensive player.

I think the problem is that every official is always told "get the first foul, get the first foul" so now you are looking at trying to find that first foul at the earliest point. If each player had backed away after the 13 second mark, we would all say, "I am not calling that one" but since you obviously have something later on, you're trying to back up and find the first one.

[JRutledge]

Team control foul on the offensive post player. Never understand why we allow the offensive player to get away with murder and we penalize the defender when it gets rough.

Peace

[twocentsworth]

at least they called 1 of the 3 fouls that I saw......

[deecee]

I've got a foul on the post defender at 13/14 seconds. You call that nothing else happens. Get the first one.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by packersowner

Missed my point - right hand around the waist? Was that because the defender was backing into him? There is no way on the video to tell if that is where contact happened by the defender. Left arm over the shoulder? When the player moves from the offensive players right side to the left side, the defensive player reaches over the top of the offensive players left arm, this is not illegal. What's illegal is when the offensive player starts to reach to hold the defensive player and the defensive player than grabs and the pulls the offensive player.

I think the problem is that every official is always told "get the first foul, get the first foul" so now you are looking at trying to find that first foul at the earliest point. If each player had backed away after the 13 second mark, we would all say, "I am not calling that one" but since you obviously have something later on, you're trying to back up and find the first one.

Yes except this first foul was an obvious grab of the waist to re-align the offensive player. It all goes down hill from there.

Originally Posted by jrutledge

Team control foul on the offensive post player. Never understand why we allow the offensive player to get away with murder and we penalize the defender when it gets rough.

If the offensive player was the first to commit a foul I agree but this starts with the defense grabbing the offensive player.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes except this first foul was an obvious grab of the waist to re-align the offensive player. It all goes down hill from there.



If the offensive player was the first to commit a foul I agree but this starts with the defense grabbing the offensive player.

It looks to me the offensive player clearly backs out the defender and then the defender tries to get around and then he is held by swinging arm to prevent him from getting around. Grabbing the arm is a reaction to the first action.

Peace

[deecee]

I think the defender grabbing the waist and turning him at 13/14 seconds starts the whole thing.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

right hand around the waist, left arm over the shoulder, and defender pulls the offensive player backward. That's the one that needs to be gotten. None of the rest of that garbage happens then.

+1

[JugglingReferee]

Offense. The little contact by B gets played through all the time up here. A's actions are a foul though.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Offense. The little contact by B gets played through all the time up here. A's actions are a foul though.

Holding a player by the waist and guiding them is little contact? By the time the whistle is blown its pretty much a double foul, but Im auto calling that hold in a Varsity game. Just like I auto call 2 hands on a player (especially the ball handler). I don't even entertain advantage/disadvantage in these situations.

Sometimes its best to call the obvious infraction and not apply to many different principles of officiating to stay out of future problems.

[deecee]

In these officials defense it is two man so that hold would have to be called by the trail who has ball responsibilities.

This is a great opportunity for the Lead to come over and officiate on the strong side.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

TC for me. Hook and displacement by the offensive player started the ball rolling.

I think I am going with Jetmet on this one, the first bumping and such is all incidental. First foul is when the offence, holds the defender from getting around to front. The second foul is on the defender when he grabs the arm he is being held by. Then, a double foul for the hold by white and the backdown by black Kinda wish the lead would have given a preliminary to see what his thoughts were on the play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

Holding a player by the waist and guiding them is little contact? By the time the whistle is blown its pretty much a double foul, but Im auto calling that hold in a Varsity game. Just like I auto call 2 hands on a player (especially the ball handler). I don't even entertain advantage/disadvantage in these situations.

Sometimes its best to call the obvious infraction and not apply to many different principles of officiating to stay out of future problems.

I am not seeing this wrist grab you keep talking about. I see a offensive player backing out a guy and then holding him to keep from getting around him. Those are displacements, not a grab that did not affect the movement of a player.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not seeing this wrist grab you keep talking about. I see a offensive player backing out a guy and then holding him to keep from getting around him. Those are displacements, not a grab that did not affect the movement of a player.

Peace

What was white's right arm doing around the 13 second mark?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

What was white's right arm doing around the 13 second mark?

So an arm around someone suggest that only a hold is possible? Sorry, but I am not seeing any restriction on the movement of the offensive player or being moved. Even in football where holding is defined as arms outside the frame during a block, it is not called until there is a material restriction of the person being "held." I would use a similar standard in basketball. Arms around someone does not mean it is a foul until there is an advantage and certain not one I can see. Maybe an angle on the end line would help me see what you are seeing, but holding means you are being "held" from doing something you were trying to do IMO.

Peace