refuses to play with 5

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Who knows? A travel...a timeout being granted...a kicked ball...lots of possibilities there.

Huh? We were talking about fighting during a live ball - you asserted that if it's fighting then it MUST be a dead ball. So what killed the ball when someone starts fighting during a live ball (or did I misread you and you mean if someone starts fighting during a live ball, it's not really fighting?)

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Huh? We were talking about fighting during a live ball - you asserted that if it's fighting then it MUST be a dead ball. So what killed the ball when someone starts fighting during a live ball (or did I misread you and you mean if someone starts fighting during a live ball, it's not really fighting?)

You misread me...and I didn't mean either of the things you thought.

All I am saying is that if a fight takes place during a live ball, by definition it is not a flagrant T...it is a flagrant personal. If the fight takes place during a dead ball, then it is a flagrant T.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You misread me...and I didn't mean either of the things you thought.

All I am saying is that if a fight takes place during a live ball, by definition it is not a flagrant T...it is a flagrant personal. If the fight takes place during a dead ball, then it is a flagrant T.

4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

4-18-1: .............regardless of whether contact is made.

10-3-8 Player Technical: A player shall not be charged with fighting.

Fighting is a technical foul. Fighting is fighting whether the ball is dead or live and whether contact occurs or not.
Straight out of the book.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

4-18-1: .............regardless of whether contact is made.

10-3-8 Player Technical: A player shall not be charged with fighting.

Fighting is a technical foul. Fighting is fighting whether the ball is dead or live and whether contact occurs or not.
Straight out of the book.

4-19-4 is straight out of the book also...clearly says a flagrant T occurs during a dead ball.

[jeremy341a]

A1 throws a punch at B1 and you hit your whistle. Immediately after your whistle B1 throws a punch back. Will can all agree that both players are disqualified. However are we to believe that A1 is charged with a flagrant foul, which means B1's sub must shoot the freethrows but then B1 is charged with a flagrant technical which means any memeber of team A, other than those that are dq'ed, can shoot the technical free throws. This wouldn't be a double foul as one is personal and one is technical.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

A1 throws a punch at B1 and you hit your whistle. Immediately after your whistle B1 throws a punch back. Will can all agree that both players are disqualified. However are we to believe that A1 is charged with a flagrant foul, which means B1's sub must shoot the freethrows but then B1 is charged with a flagrant technical which means any memeber of team A, other than those that are dq'ed, can shoot the technical free throws. This wouldn't be a double foul as one is personal and one is technical.

When I had this scenario (not a punch, either, but a flagrant live-ball bear hug followed by retaliation), I was informed by my state (not in the mountain time zone) that the two fouls should have been considered a double foul.
Now, this has been a few years, and I have moved to another state. I am not sure that state would want the same ruling now, nor am I sure my current state would want that ruling.

That is, however, the way I'd be inclined to rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You misread me...and I didn't mean either of the things you thought.

All I am saying is that if a fight takes place during a live ball, by definition it is not a flagrant T...it is a flagrant personal. If the fight takes place during a dead ball, then it is a flagrant T.

Then you ARE saying what I thought. And you're wrong. Fighting, live or dead ball, is a T. Period.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Then you ARE saying what I thought. And you're wrong. Fighting, live or dead ball, is a T. Period.

Thanks.

But I am not.

10-3-8 says fighting is a flagrant act. The definition of a technical says it is live ball non-contact, or dead ball contact. Therefore, a fight during a live ball is not a flagrant Technical as it not a dead ball situation. It is a flagrant personal.

Unless of course you can use the rules to show me that I am wrong instead of "just because you say so".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

10-3-8 says fighting is a flagrant act.

Right. And 10-3 deals entirely with player technicals and does not deal with personal fouls.

At all.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Right. And 10-3 deals entirely with player technicals and does not deal with personal fouls.

At all.

Because fighting CAN be a Technical...

Ok. Time to move on.

How bout those mechanics from that Desert Valley guy?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Thanks.

But I am not.

10-3-8 says fighting is a flagrant act. The definition of a technical says it is live ball non-contact, or dead ball contact. Therefore, a fight during a live ball is not a flagrant Technical as it not a dead ball situation. It is a flagrant personal.

Unless of course you can use the rules to show me that I am wrong instead of "just because you say so".

Goodness. People are being intentionally obtuse today. First I have someone tell me that no where in the rules does it say a batter is out when they hit an infield fly - when the rule they were talking about simply says, "The batter is out when they hit an infield fly."

Now you tell me fighting cannot be a live ball act, when 4-18 says, quite plainly: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Because fighting CAN be a Technical...

Ok. Time to move on.

How bout those mechanics from that Desert Valley guy?

Could he be a candidate for next season's "Dancing with the Stars"?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Goodness. People are being intentionally obtuse today. First I have someone tell me that no where in the rules does it say a batter is out when they hit an infield fly - when the rule they were talking about simply says, "The batter is out when they hit an infield fly."

Now you tell me fighting cannot be a live ball act, when 4-18 says, quite plainly: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

Someone is certainly being obtuse here...

I will go slowly for you. I never said fighting can not be a live ball act. I did say that if a fight occurs during a live ball, it is not a flagrant technical, but a flagrant personal.For reasons already stated.

[just another ref]

A flagrant personal foul is a personal foul of a violent or savage nature. All personal fouls involve contact. Fighting may or may not involve contact. The contact, if it occurs, is secondary to the violent intent of the act.

The above is my interpretation.

The below is not.

10-3-8 tells us a player shall not be charged with fighting, listing the penalty as two free throws for the offended team plus the ball at the division line.

Where's the gray area here?

[maven]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Someone is certainly being obtuse here...

I will go slowly for you. I never said fighting can not be a live ball act. I did say that if a fight occurs during a live ball, it is not a flagrant technical, but a flagrant personal.For reasons already stated.

I was with you at first. But the penalty for ALL of 10-3, including 10-3-8 (fighting) is the penalty for a T, not a flagrant personal foul.

The rules are murky, but the only difference between a flagrant T and a flagrant personal foul is where you put the ball in play. Prolly not worth going to the mat over.

New trivia question: what live-ball, contact foul is a technical foul.