Offensive foul / basket counts?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by justacoach

You should consider switching to officiating and away from 'the dark side'.

Saw a bumper sticker:

"COME OVER TO THE DARK SIDE. WE HAVE COOKIES."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

Sorta on par with officials on any level who say they don't have access to the rule book.

This coach is way ahead on that measure.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Bear in mind the OP is a JH coach and came here with a legit question, not a rant......
RIF

Yes, you are correct. I should know it is hard to find coaches at that level in some places. First they look within the ranks of teachers at that school and sometimes end up with an eager (it seems in this case) if not experienced candidate. Hat's off to him or her for undertaking the challenge. Just keeping that age group behaving on a half hour bus ride across town is as big a deal as getting them in the right defense. I wasn't knocking your recruitment and should understand he's prob new to the sport. Just thought that knowing/seeing a player control signal was fairly basic and universal. Perhaps he's also coming along at a time when the hand behind the head is on the way out and he's had other games where a PC has been called and he's not seen this.

[APG]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

Most people don't call offensive fouls player control fouls...hence that's probably why he had to look it up.

[ram]

I came to this forum looking for an answer to an officiating question / rule interpretation. Most replies were professional and informative. And thank you to all. I have poked around and learned a lot of nuances of officiating that I was unaware of. I am sure my visit here will make me a better coach. If nothing else, maybe I’ll be less critical of officials.

The following comment, though, I find rude and condescending.

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

I certainly would never imply someone was stupid if they came on to an electrical forum, for example, with a legit question and didn’t know that the cover of their “electrical panel” is actually called a “dead front” or that the “electrical panel” is actually a “service equipment enclosure”. Those things you plug your TV, computer, etc into? “receptacles”, not “outlets”. Especially if it was a new visitor to the forum.

APG is exactly right. I have seen the signal plenty, but have always known that signal as an “offensive” foul. (which I now know is incorrect terminology) and thus looked up "player control foul" to be sure that what I saw and what was posted here were indeed one and the same. In 6 years of coaching basketball, I have never heard anyone (official, coach, player, scorer) say “player control foul”.

Maybe I should watch more hoops on TV. I’m sure the announcers, who watch basketball for a living, certainly would use the proper terminology. Yes, yes… I’m certain that this type of on-air exchange occurs frequently.

Bob: That’s the 5th charge Johnny Setmafeet has taken!

Bill: Ya know, Bob, he’s really learned how to get in position to get a player control foul called. Randy Runyaover has commited 3 player control fouls himself. Those player control fouls are really making him have to play tentative on defense.

Bob: Yes, Bill, those player control fouls are also really affecting their ability to get into an offensive rythym.

letemplay, perhaps you should come to grips with the fact that most of us weren’t born with your extensive wisdom and actually have to educate ourselves from time to time. You also may want to be wary of asking any medical questions until you are sure of what the phalanges of the digitus medius are for.

Originally Posted by justacoach

Bear in mind the OP is a JH coach and came here with a legit question, not a rant......
RIF

Until now. Sorry.

[JRutledge]

Ram,

With all due respect, that is the reason people are questioning your knowledge of the game. And yes correct terminology matters. And when you are asking rules questions, it is hard to know what you mean when you are using totally off the wall comments that might be used by commentators. And I expect coaches to know the rules of the game that they are directly involved in. It is sad that they often do not and it makes our job harder when we deal with coaches using terminology that it not correct or argues they know the rule and use completely incorrect or confusing information. I am sure if you were on electrical forum and used teams that were incorrect, while claiming you work as an electrician, I bet people would be concerned if you used incorrect language or examples. We have a lot of people that come here claiming to know things and when pressed clearly do not know as much as they say they do about the situations they were involved in or witnessed.

Peace

[ram]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Ram,

With all due respect, that is the reason people are questioning your knowledge of the game. And yes correct terminology matters. And when you are asking rules questions, it is hard to know what you mean when you are using totally off the wall comments that might be used by commentators. And I expect coaches to know the rules of the game that they are directly involved in. It is sad that they often do not and it makes our job harder when we deal with coaches using terminology that it not correct or argues they know the rule and use completely incorrect or confusing information. I am sure if you were on electrical forum and used teams that were incorrect, while claiming you work as an electrician, I bet people would be concerned if you used incorrect language or examples. We have a lot of people that come here claiming to know things and when pressed clearly do not know as much as they say they do about the situations they were involved in or witnessed.

Peace

I apreciate the education. That's why I came here in the first place.
I agree wholeheartedly that terminoligy matters and I should learn the correct terminology. No reason to be rude, though. And I never claimed to know anything. Plenty of people will attest to that.

I said "I looked it up" without even thinking about it. I'm just trying to learn.

Besides, I'm just a coach and we all know coaches don't know what they're talking about.

[Adam]

Frankly, I agree that letemplay was out of line with that particular comment, but I believe he retracted after further discussion.

[APG]

Just for completeness sake, there's no such terminology as an player control foul in the NBA...what would be a player control foul is termed an offensive foul. So I'm going to assume the OP is coaching under a NBA rule set.

[ram]

Originally Posted by APG

So I'm going to assume the OP is coaching under a NBA rule set.

Not quite. The Wizards haven't called yet.

And FWIW, I don't watch the NBA, just NCAA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ram

I apreciate the education. That's why I came here in the first place.
I agree wholeheartedly that terminoligy matters and I should learn the correct terminology. No reason to be rude, though. And I never claimed to know anything. Plenty of people will attest to that.

I said "I looked it up" without even thinking about it. I'm just trying to learn.

Besides, I'm just a coach and we all know coaches don't know what they're talking about.

I think people are way to sensitive these days. People do not like to be told direct answers anymore and when someone tells them what they are thinking they call them rude. He did not call you a name or say you were stupid, just mostly pointing out your lack of knowledge based on the usage of your terminology, which is confusing to what really happened. We do not even know a lot of stuff by what you said in the story. Even if the official gave a signal, that does not mean that is what was ultimately called. And you have not yet told us what or if the officials explained to you what they discussed to count the basket. Those are very legitimate questions and that is all anyone here was trying to figure out through the bad terminology.

Peace