Offensive foul / basket counts?

[ram]

V1 driving to basket. H1 has position in his path. V1 shoots, whistle sounds. Official on baseline (O1) calls offensive foul on V1 and gives the signal.
Ball goes in, O1 waves off shot. O2 (at half court) says shot should count. The confer for a moment and decide the basket counts.

Yes, I am the coach of H. This was in the last minute of OT and was the last basket made, we lost.

Confused on how an offensive foul results in basket counting? From my understanding, once the shot leaves the fingers, there is no possession, thus no "offensive" foul.

If it was an offensive foul, then how can the basket count?

From my recollection the sequence was:
Shot, whistle, ball goes in.


Thanks in advance.

[JRutledge]

It would depend on the level or the circumstances. NF rules are different than NCAA Rules (Men's). Normally on a player-control foul the shot would not count (not offensive foul as there is no such thing).

The basket could count on a goaltending or basket interference call if the violation took place before the foul. If that is not the case at the HS levels, then the basketball will not count.

In NCAA level if the ball is released before the contact that causes a foul, then the basket should count if the ball goes in the basket.

Without knowing the level this took place it is hard to give one answer. But it sounds like something is either missing or the officials did not explain very well what happened.

Peace

[ODog]

If your description is accurate, sounds like you got jobbed, Coach. Mind you, this is all if we're dealing with a HS game, and I think the assumption on this board is that's the case unless explicitly laid out otherwise.

For the record, there are no "offensive" fouls. There are player-control fouls and team-control fouls.

No basket can be scored on a player-control foul. In this case, the sequence of events relative to whistle and release are irrelevant. The ball is dead the minute the foul is committed and no basket can be scored regardless of where the ball was (out, in, through the basket). An airborne shooter (by definition, someone who has already released his shot) can still commit a player-control foul until he returns to the floor. So, provided V1 was an airborne shooter, you got hosed.

But if V1 committed this foul after releasing the ball AND after returning to the floor (if he ever left it to begin with), then you're SOL. But then it wouldn't be a PC or TC foul.

Since you say O1 called and gave the sign for an "offensive foul" (whatever you consider that to be), that takes the scenario in the preceding sentence off the table.

So yes, there are (unlikely) variables where perhaps this was administered properly, but from the initial description, I'm leaning (heavily) in your favor.

[Adam]

The official may have signaled pc because it was the shooter, but it's still possible that he committed the foul after releasing the try and after returning to the floor. That isn't off the table just because of a signal.

[ram]

Jr high game. Thanks for the correct terminology. The signal was for player control foul (just looked it up).

[Camron Rust]

As Adam mentioned, did the foul occur after the shot release AND after the shooter returned to the floor (or never jumped)? If so, that would not be considered a player control foul and the shot would count.

[JRutledge]

The fact this was a JH game tells me any of these situations are possible.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ram

Jr high game. Thanks for the correct terminology. The signal was for player control foul (just looked it up).

It's entirely possible that you had "newer" referees at a JH game, and that one of them was confused by the correct rule and used the NCAAM's rule on the play. It probably wasn't the first time a rule was misapplied at one of your games, and it probably won't be the last.

[justacoach]

Hello Ram: Welcome to the board. Congrats on your detective work for looking up the proper signal and educating yourself. You should consider switching to officiating and away from 'the dark side'.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's entirely possible that you had "newer" referees at a JH game, and that one of them was confused by the correct rule and used the NCAAM's rule on the play. It probably wasn't the first time a rule was misapplied at one of your games, and it probably won't be the last.

I know I made this very mistake my first year during a 7th or 8th grade game at least twice. I know better now, of course, but JH games are the training ground for newer officials and players alike, so mistakes like this are bound to happen.

Hopefully after your game both of the officials dug into the rule book to verify that their ruling was "correct" and discovered the truth.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Hello Ram: Welcome to the board. Congrats on your detective work for looking up the proper signal and educating yourself. You should consider switching to officiating and away from 'the dark side'.

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

[maven]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As Adam mentioned, did the foul occur after the shot release AND after the shooter returned to the floor (or never jumped)? If so, that would not be considered a player control foul and the shot would count.

Just so ram understands the ruling here:

1. If the shooter is still airborne after release of the try and crashes the defender, then by (NFHS) rule the foul is a player control foul, and the basket (if made) should be canceled.

2. Once the shooter has returned to the floor (with a foot) he is no longer an airborne shooter. At that point, his crashing the defender, while still a foul, is not a player control foul. Since it occurs during a try, when there is no team control either, it is not a team control (offensive) foul. Thus, if the try is successful it will count, and the foul is treated as a common foul, just as if a non-shooter had committed a rebounding foul.

As others have mentioned, NCAAM treats #1 like #2, provided the foul occurs after release of the try. All we know for sure is that the official counted the bucket: if #2 happened, he got it right. If #1 happened, maybe he was applying the NCAAM rule, or maybe he just blew it.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

So you wanna bust my chops for doing a little gratuitous recruiting??
Wish more of our officiating brethren would exercise the same degree of inquisitiveness...

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by justacoach

So you wanna bust my chops for doing a little gratuitous recruiting??
Wish more of our officiating brethren would exercise the same degree of inquisitiveness...

Inquisitive?? What's the big mystery? Not knowing the player control signal to me is like saying, "Well, I guess the one ref thought we'd scored a touchdown because he had both arms raised over his head"

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

Originally Posted by letemplay

Inquisitive?? What's the big mystery? Not knowing the player control signal to me is like saying, "Well, I guess the one ref thought we'd scored a touchdown because he had both arms raised over his head"

Bear in mind the OP is a JH coach and came here with a legit question, not a rant......
RIF