Communication with partner

[just another ref]

Hard to say without seeing the play. You gave him your opinion, with which he obviously did not agree. Is it possible that the player went up to shoot, then after contact, passed instead? You say it was in your partner's area, but you are sure you saw the play better than he did?

It would have to be a really big and obvious screwup before I would inject myself here without being asked.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Hard to say without seeing the play. You gave him your opinion, with which he obviously did not agree. Is it possible that the player went up to shoot, then after contact, passed instead? You say it was in your partner's area, but you are sure you saw the play better than he did?

It would have to be a really big and obvious screwup before I would inject myself here without being asked.

If he passed instead the then I have it as a non-shooting foul. I've seen plenty of players go up for a shot and then decide to pass it instead.

Had this exact play with a long-time veteran in the new association I just joined and I walked past him and said "he passed the ball" and my partner changed it to a non-shooting foul and we had a throw-in on the endline.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If he passed instead the then I have it as a non-shooting foul. I've seen plenty of players go up for a shot and then decide to pass it instead.

It is a judgment call, of course. But if, in my judgment, the player is attempting a try, but contact causes him to instead pass the ball, he gets two shots.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is a judgment call, of course. But if, in my judgment, the player is attempting a try, but contact causes him to instead pass the ball, he gets two shots.

not a chance a person who passes the ball is getting two free throws from me. doesnt matter what his intentions were before contact if he throws a pass instead of shooting the ball he has not attempted to score a goal and should not be awarded free throws.

as for the op, i have no problem letting a partner know that the play resulted in a pass rather than a shot and i dont know why any official would be offended when a partner offers information.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by johnny d

not a chance a person who passes the ball is getting two free throws from me. doesnt matter what his intentions were before contact if he throws a pass instead of shooting the ball he has not attempted to score a goal and should not be awarded free throws.

So you're saying if a player is shooting a layup and is knocked to the floor before the release, but instinctively shoves the ball toward a teammate at the last instant, he doesn't get free throws?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you're saying if a player is shooting a layup and is knocked to the floor before the release, but instinctively shoves the ball toward a teammate at the last instant, he doesn't get free throws?

I'm saying that if he isn't.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I'm saying that if he isn't.

This is very wrong.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I'm saying that if he isn't.

Peace

I was not aware that we were supposed to take into account action that occurs after the ball is dead in determining what we should have called when it was live. Seems rather arse-backward to me.

[Camron Rust]

By rule, if the player was shooting when they were fouled, they're going to the line. It doesn't matter what they do next. Nothing says they have to finish the shot to be in the act of shooting. Their shot was stopped by the foul and I'm not going to reward a defender who fouls such that the shot becomes impossible and the shooter, not knowing for sure if a foul will even be called, instead tries to salvage the play. Anything else is shortchanging the shooter.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by camron rust

by rule, if the player was shooting when they were fouled, they're going to the line. It doesn't matter what they do next. nothing says they have to finish the shot to be in the act of shooting. Their shot was stopped by the foul and i'm not going to reward a defender who fouls such that the shot becomes impossible and the shooter, not knowing for sure if a foul will even be called, instead tries to salvage the play. Anything else is shortchanging the shooter.

+1

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By rule, if the player was shooting when they were fouled, they're going to the line. It doesn't matter what they do next. Nothing says they have to finish the shot to be in the act of shooting. Their shot was stopped by the foul and I'm not going to reward a defender who fouls such that the shot becomes impossible and the shooter, not knowing for sure if a foul will even be called, instead tries to salvage the play. Anything else is shortchanging the shooter.

you might think he is in the act of shooting right up to the point he decides to pass the ball and when he does, he isnt getting free throws. the contact didnt prevent him from releasing the ball, in which case i will make a judgement as to whether or not he was attempting to shoot, so he chose to pass the ball, which means he isnt shooting!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

you might think he is in the act of shooting right up to the point he decides to pass the ball and when he does, he isnt getting free throws. the contact didnt prevent him from releasing the ball, in which case i will make a judgement as to whether or not he was attempting to shoot, so he chose to pass the ball, which means he isnt shooting!

And that is exactly what I get paid to do and that is what matters at the time of the foul. Defaulting to a pass if they don't actually finish the shot is, IMO, the lazy way out.

If you're going to follow the philosophy you've laid out, you must also award shots when a player who had no intention of shooting gets fouled and then flings the ball towards the basket after realizing they were fouled.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is it possible that the player went up to shoot, then after contact, passed instead? You say it was in your partner's area, but you are sure you saw the play better than he did?

It would have to be a really big and obvious screwup before I would inject myself here without being asked.

It is completely possible that the player went up to shoot but passed after contact. I saw the pass better than the lead, but it is his final decision. It is not as though I am overruling him. I was simply providing him information, but he got pissed anyway and told me not to do that in the future.

If the player was fouled on the pass, there would have been no shots. Instead we were shooting two. That seems like an important enough situation to warrant my approaching him unasked. I guess I am more asking when I should give a partner unasked advice? I guess it depends a lot on the person, because some are sensitive as mentioned above.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

It is completely possible that the player went up to shoot but passed after contact. I guess I am more asking when I should give a partner unasked advice?

Not here, if you ask me.

[JRutledge]

Again this game is about angles. If someone comes to me and clearly sees a pass, then they are not going to get a shooting foul.

Then if a player clearly passes despite what his intentions were at the time of the foul call, it is not my mind to read his mind, I am going to give him the benefit of the last thing he did. Had a coach this past week make that point but the his player clearly passed the ball. Otherwise if you cannot tell what they were doing as they were going to the basket or in a shooting motion, then I am always going to think they are shooting.

Peace