Communication with partner

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is a judgment call, of course. But if, in my judgment, the player is attempting a try, but contact causes him to instead pass the ball, he gets two shots.

not a chance a person who passes the ball is getting two free throws from me. doesnt matter what his intentions were before contact if he throws a pass instead of shooting the ball he has not attempted to score a goal and should not be awarded free throws.

as for the op, i have no problem letting a partner know that the play resulted in a pass rather than a shot and i dont know why any official would be offended when a partner offers information.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by johnny d

not a chance a person who passes the ball is getting two free throws from me. doesnt matter what his intentions were before contact if he throws a pass instead of shooting the ball he has not attempted to score a goal and should not be awarded free throws.

So you're saying if a player is shooting a layup and is knocked to the floor before the release, but instinctively shoves the ball toward a teammate at the last instant, he doesn't get free throws?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you're saying if a player is shooting a layup and is knocked to the floor before the release, but instinctively shoves the ball toward a teammate at the last instant, he doesn't get free throws?

I'm saying that if he isn't.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I'm saying that if he isn't.

This is very wrong.

[JetMetFan]

We can always wait a beat and see what the player does after contact. If A1 is going up for a layup, gets hit and then passes the ball...from what I was taught, he just cost himself FTs. If the contact makes it so he can't release the ball on a shot, that's another story. Sure there's judgment involved but the player will solve the issue for us if we wait a second.

As for providing information, that's a tough one. It wasn't in your area but you followed the play, which isn't wrong since it started in your area. The other way to at least put it in your partner's mind would've been to ask him as he goes by "Possession or shots?" Once he gives his answer, move on.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

We can always wait a beat and see what the player does after contact. If A1 is going up for a layup, gets hit and then passes the ball...from what I was taught, he just cost himself FTs.

I was taught the same way. Then, I read some interp from the NFHS (might be in the "annual interps thread"; I don't think it's in the case book) and changed how I called the plays to follow the interp.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is very wrong.

Is it very wrong because you disagree with it?

Look, if a player wants me to think they are shooting, then shoot the ball. If a player wants me to think they are passing, then pass the ball. Not all players that gather and jump in the air are shooting. Otherwise if a player gathers and gets the ball knocked out his hands or knocked the the floor whether they release the ball to shoot or pass, they are getting shots from me. After all this is all about judgment anyway. There is ultimately nothing right or wrong either way. I am just not rewarding a player that is not smart enough to know to not pass the ball if you want the total benefit of the foul.

Peace

[APG]

I've always been taught, and judged these plays similar to how JRut has spelled it out. The only exception is if a player puts up a shot as a clear afterthought.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by APG

I've always been taught, and judged these plays similar to how JRut has spelled it out. The only exception is if a player puts up a shot as a clear afterthought.

So if he puts up a shot as a clear afterthought, it's not a shot. OK, I get that. But if he changes his shot to a pass as a clear afterthought, it's also not a shot? It's THAT that I don't get.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is it very wrong because you disagree with it?

The definition of a try tells us it is still a try even if a foul prevents the release of the ball. The fact that the player releases the ball on a pass after all this doesn't change that. In my example, I took judgment out of the equation.

"If a player is shooting a layup......."

He gets clobbered and is unable to complete the layup, so he does what he can, just in case he doesn't get the foul call. You and johnny d say, because of this late pass, which in fact occurs after the ball is dead, he shouldn't get free throws.

This is very wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The definition of a try tells us it is still a try even if a foul prevents the release of the ball. The fact that the player releases the ball on a pass after all this doesn't change that. In my example, I took judgment out of the equation.

"If a player is shooting a layup......."

He gets clobbered and is unable to complete the layup, so he does what he can, just in case he doesn't get the foul call. You and johnny d say, because of this late pass, which in fact occurs after the ball is dead, he shouldn't get free throws.

This is very wrong.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Because part of this is judgment and when a player does one thing, I am not going to assume he wanted to do something totally different. He better continue as if he was shooting if he wants a shooting foul opportunity. If he passes because he thinks that is the better play, then he told me what he wanted to do. Again, this is not a reading minds situation where I know for sure. Again, I give the benefit of the doubt to shooting anytime a player gathers the ball. But when they could hear the whistle and do something else, that tells me they were not shooting. That is the way I have done it for years and that is the way I will continue forward. You can say I am wrong, but no one but you in my career has ever argued the point you are in this discussion.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I'm saying that if he isn't.

Peace

I was not aware that we were supposed to take into account action that occurs after the ball is dead in determining what we should have called when it was live. Seems rather arse-backward to me.

[Camron Rust]

By rule, if the player was shooting when they were fouled, they're going to the line. It doesn't matter what they do next. Nothing says they have to finish the shot to be in the act of shooting. Their shot was stopped by the foul and I'm not going to reward a defender who fouls such that the shot becomes impossible and the shooter, not knowing for sure if a foul will even be called, instead tries to salvage the play. Anything else is shortchanging the shooter.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by camron rust

by rule, if the player was shooting when they were fouled, they're going to the line. It doesn't matter what they do next. nothing says they have to finish the shot to be in the act of shooting. Their shot was stopped by the foul and i'm not going to reward a defender who fouls such that the shot becomes impossible and the shooter, not knowing for sure if a foul will even be called, instead tries to salvage the play. Anything else is shortchanging the shooter.

+1

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By rule, if the player was shooting when they were fouled, they're going to the line. It doesn't matter what they do next. Nothing says they have to finish the shot to be in the act of shooting. Their shot was stopped by the foul and I'm not going to reward a defender who fouls such that the shot becomes impossible and the shooter, not knowing for sure if a foul will even be called, instead tries to salvage the play. Anything else is shortchanging the shooter.

you might think he is in the act of shooting right up to the point he decides to pass the ball and when he does, he isnt getting free throws. the contact didnt prevent him from releasing the ball, in which case i will make a judgement as to whether or not he was attempting to shoot, so he chose to pass the ball, which means he isnt shooting!