LGP under the basket ?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by egj13

In all of your replies you keep missing oout on something...in officiating there is personal belief applied to many of the rules and how we administer them.

tomegun, you say that I am causing us to look inconsistent? I ask again, if a player is standing near the low block with his foot on the lane line for more than 3 seconds do you whistle him for it? What do you tell a coach when he says the last crew in here called it. Same goes for rough post play and what you deem incidental in comparison to what i deem incidental.

In the end I will agree to disagree with you guys...

You're missing the whole point. You can have all kinds of grey areas where you call or don't call an infraction, but nowhere does that go so far as to penalize the wrong team.

What you're doing is akin to a defensive player entering the lane early on a FT then canceling the offensive player's shot.

You can officiate around the grey regions all day and that is a matter of preference but don't try to turn black into white. Don't call the charge if you don't want to but you can't justify a block no matter how you twist it. You're cheating the defender by giving him a foul when he did nothing to deserve it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by egj13

....

My personal philosophy is that a player under the basket has an unfair advantage when trying to draw a charge and it is dangerous...hence the reason the NCAA put in the RA. But don't play all high and mighty like I am the only official on here that has personal philosophies on how the game should be called.

So, do you tell the coach this is why you didn't make the player control call or do you lie?

Based on an earlier post you seem reluctant to be forthcoming with the coach. If I don't call a hand-checking foul I can always truthfully say I didn't feel the contact affected the ball-handler. Can you be as truthful in your response about the block?

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by egj13

In all of your replies you keep missing oout on something...in officiating there is personal belief applied to many of the rules and how we administer them.

tomegun, you say that I am causing us to look inconsistent? I ask again, if a player is standing near the low block with his foot on the lane line for more than 3 seconds do you whistle him for it? What do you tell a coach when he says the last crew in here called it. Same goes for rough post play and what you deem incidental in comparison to what i deem incidental.

In the end I will agree to disagree with you guys...

I'm ok with the idea of a no call because you don't feel the spirit, intent, or letter of a rule has been violated. You don't see the pushing and shoving effecting the post player no call it. You see a hand check but it doesn't impact the ball carrier and you want to no call it thats fine too. Kid has foot in the key but never recieves the ball or looks to recieve it, so you don't call 3 in the key that is fine with me. Kid is really deep and not really trying to defend, no call on the defense getting run over.

I'm also willing to support an official who tightly applies the rule. Kid was in the key for 3 seconds official called three seconds. Kid put his hands on the ball handler and u think its too much so you call it. Post players have to respect time, space and cylinder so when the start pushing each other off spots the ref calls fouls. Player has legal guarding position and gets run over, so we call a charge.

Here's what I (and most officials I know) would never be ok with. Kid was not in the key, but we call 3 seconds. Kid does not put his hands on the offensive player, but we call a handcheck. Post player stands holding his own space but we call him for pushing off. Player establishes LGP and does nothing illegal, is not responsible for the contact and gets called for a block or other foul.

I'm ok with whatever your personal feelings are about deep players and drawing charges so long as your choices are call the rule as written or no call the situation. I'm not ok with the idea of making up non existent calls to get the game played the way we want it to be played.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I'm ok with the idea of a no call because you don't feel the spirit, intent, or letter of a rule has been violated. You don't see the pushing and shoving effecting the post player no call it. You see a hand check but it doesn't impact the ball carrier and you want to no call it thats fine too. Kid has foot in the key but never recieves the ball or looks to recieve it, so you don't call 3 in the key that is fine with me. Kid is really deep and not really trying to defend, no call on the defense getting run over.

I'm also willing to support an official who tightly applies the rule. Kid was in the key for 3 seconds official called three seconds. Kid put his hands on the ball handler and u think its too much so you call it. Post players have to respect time, space and cylinder so when the start pushing each other off spots the ref calls fouls. Player has legal guarding position and gets run over, so we call a charge.

Here's what I (and most officials I know) would never be ok with. Kid was not in the key, but we call 3 seconds. Kid does not put his hands on the offensive player, but we call a handcheck. Post player stands holding his own space but we call him for pushing off. Player establishes LGP and does nothing illegal, is not responsible for the contact and gets called for a block or other foul.

I'm ok with whatever your personal feelings are about deep players and drawing charges so long as your choices are call the rule as written or no call the situation. I'm not ok with the idea of making up non existent calls to get the game played the way we want it to be played.

+1

Well said.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I'm ok with the idea of a no call because you don't feel the spirit, intent, or letter of a rule has been violated. You don't see the pushing and shoving effecting the post player no call it. You see a hand check but it doesn't impact the ball carrier and you want to no call it thats fine too. Kid has foot in the key but never recieves the ball or looks to recieve it, so you don't call 3 in the key that is fine with me. Kid is really deep and not really trying to defend, no call on the defense getting run over.

I don't think all four of these things go together that well. In the first three, the official chose the no call because, basically, nothing happened.

In the last example, something happened. In the last play, the defender was run over. He did a good thing, even if by accident. He took away the path to the basket and prevented a score. It doesn't matter if he was "not trying to defend." It doesn't matter how deep he was in the key. He was run over. He was displaced. Something happened.

This is just wrong.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't think all four of these things go together that well. In the first three, the official chose the no call because, basically, nothing happened.

In the last example, something happened. In the last play, the defender was run over. He did a good thing, even if by accident. He took away the path to the basket and prevented a score. It doesn't matter if he was "not trying to defend." It doesn't matter how deep he was in the key. He was run over. He was displaced. Something happened.

This is just wrong.

I would call it, but I can understand an official no calling because they don't feel a real advantage was gained. That is always an option. The issue becomes it has to a be a call or a no call, you can't make up rules, penalties or infractions where one doesn't exist.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I'm ok with the idea of a no call because you don't feel the spirit, intent, or letter of a rule has been violated. You don't see the pushing and shoving effecting the post player no call it. You see a hand check but it doesn't impact the ball carrier and you want to no call it thats fine too. Kid has foot in the key but never recieves the ball or looks to recieve it, so you don't call 3 in the key that is fine with me. Kid is really deep and not really trying to defend, no call on the defense getting run over.

I'm also willing to support an official who tightly applies the rule. Kid was in the key for 3 seconds official called three seconds. Kid put his hands on the ball handler and u think its too much so you call it. Post players have to respect time, space and cylinder so when the start pushing each other off spots the ref calls fouls. Player has legal guarding position and gets run over, so we call a charge.

Here's what I (and most officials I know) would never be ok with. Kid was not in the key, but we call 3 seconds. Kid does not put his hands on the offensive player, but we call a handcheck. Post player stands holding his own space but we call him for pushing off. Player establishes LGP and does nothing illegal, is not responsible for the contact and gets called for a block or other foul.

I'm ok with whatever your personal feelings are about deep players and drawing charges so long as your choices are call the rule as written or no call the situation. I'm not ok with the idea of making up non existent calls to get the game played the way we want it to be played.

+2

We can talk about personal preference, judgement, discretion all we want. They are undoubtedly a big part of officiating.

But there are rules for a reason. The number one complaint from coaches that is legitimate IMO is about consistency. When someone decides to arbitrarily apply rules that don't exist at that level, that is a problem. Even if they believe they are individually consistent in calling it.

Personally, I'm not a fan of a player standing under the basket to draw a charge and likely no-call that situation more than many at the HS level. But I will not call a block on a player who has LGP and has done nothing illegal under NFHS rules simply because I want to apply NCAA or NBA rules to a NFHS game. It's wrong, plain and simple.