The 3-person battle continues

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

.... the HC asked their assistant if they were playing the next opponent in a 3man game or two man. As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.

This is really a stretch.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is really a stretch.

Why?

I coached summer league stuff for my sons when they were playing in HS, and we had specific screens we set in specific area when we had two person crews. Not hard to do at all.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

... As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.
.....

This is the most difficult part of 2-man for me. I hate that we miss those illegal screens. Doing a 2-man game tonight where the host sets a lot of questionable screens. This school sometimes uses 3-man. Tonight, if I think it might be illegal, I'm putting a whistle on it. Coach can fuss all he wants (which wouldn't be anything new).

[Freddy]

We used to have one conference assigning 3-man for F/JV DH's, which was an excellent learning ground for many who are now doing 3-man for varsity in our area (V is all 3-man/woman/person/human). The superintendents axed it against the advice of their AD's. Now, unless a guy gets what he needs from summer camps or from the various off-season scrimmages, he ain't never gonna get to the V level.
There are two prominent, large-school conferences who also cut back to 2-man for F/JV DH's, but several of us always bring in a third--splitting the two checks three ways. Though this sets a bad precedent, giving the schools something they don't pay for, we're hoping they are able to contrast the outcome of the 2-man games with those done by the freebie 3-man crews.
We don't give 'em chronic ballwatchers, only good, young, up-and-coming officials already doing varsity 3-man.
Time will tell if our sales pitch pays off.
The Referee mag article states the case quite well. Should be sent to all AD's and their budgetary-conscious supers.

[tomegun]

There was one school in particular outside of DC (Howard or Montgomery County) that used to run an offense with a lot of picks. Every time I went to the school I knew that I had to avoid a lot of extra movement at the Lead so I could see all of the screening. I also have less time to talk to coaches in two-man games. I think there is more to take in on the court.

This past summer one tournament had the Oakland Soldiers versus Mac Irvin Fire - in an auxiliary gym. These are two of the top 17U teams in the country and they both will let you know it (with their mouths) from the time they walk into the gym. It was scheduled for two-man, but I worked with my friend and his campers came over that day to work the games at the site three-man. It was a tough game for three officials! The crowd started piling into the gym for that game the game before. A situation occurred where I came onto the court to "deal with" a parent, the tournament director was called in (by me) for a situation, the school cops were almost called to deal with a parent. But it was good basketball and fun!

[packersowner]

Originally Posted by egj13

We do all our Varsity games here in MT with 3-man. In some of the tiny gyms it is almost too many people out there but we do it anyway.

Last year I was doing a JV game in 2-man. The H coach was asking me to watch off ball screens so I said "I'll watch what I can and that is why we have 3 refs at the varsity level to catch that stuff easier". He looks at me and says "all having 3 refs does is make you all lazy. You had 2 refs for all those years and were just fine, now you all are lazy" I swear...

Well the game was much simpler when Custer County beat Missoula, 11-6, circa 1923.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

As for the coaches being against it...they just don't want to have their star players picking up fouls that the third set of eyes would be catching. It means they would have to teach proper defense, proper screens, etc., etc...again, a stupid and selfish reason.

This. I had a game last week (3 person) where a team's star player fouled out. According to the coach, he never fouls out and our crew changed the game. Two or three of his fouls were off ball stuff we never would have gotten in a 2 person game. Unfortunately it's back to 2 person tonight for me. 3 person still is not widely used here although more schools have adopted it this season.

[just another ref]

For the guys who advocate a different approach with a two man crew, setting certain screens in potentially dead areas, what is it that you're doing that you don't want the officials to see?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

For the guys who advocate a different approach with a two man crew, setting certain screens in potentially dead areas, what is it that you're doing that you don't want the officials to see?

I don't think anyone is advocating it...but like tome gun said, there are dead spots in two man coverage and coaches take advantage of that knowledge.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't think anyone is advocating it...but like tome gun said, there are dead spots in two man coverage and coaches take advantage of that knowledge.

There are dead spots in the paint when large numbers of bodies are packed in there at times, so let's go nuts when that happens, guys.

I find the whole concept dirty.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

There are dead spots in the paint when large numbers of bodies are packed in there at times, so let's go nuts when that happens, guys.

I find the whole concept dirty.

And far be it from a coach or player to do anything dirty.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And far be it from a coach or player to do anything dirty.

Right. We should get this line published somewhere.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't think anyone is advocating it...but like tome gun said, there are dead spots in two man coverage and coaches take advantage of that knowledge.

It's not only specific spots, it's general coverage.

If all fouls were seen with 3 officials, then maybe only 2/3 of the fouls are seen with 2 officials. So, "play more agressive" and you'll be able to commit 7 fouls before you get called for 5.

(The math and logic isn't quite right, of course, but the general concept is.0

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's not only specific spots, it's general coverage.

If all fouls were seen with 3 officials, then maybe only 2/3 of the fouls are seen with 2 officials. So, "play more agressive" and you'll be able to commit 7 fouls before you get called for 5.

(The math and logic isn't quite right, of course, but the general concept is.0

Easy now Bob...you are just being dirty now.

[just another ref]

For the coaches benefit, (can't believe I said that) putting any faith in a blanket concept such as this one has large potential to break your heart. Depending on a variety of factors, this 2 man crew, may call more/tighter and yes, possibly even a better game overall than that 3 man crew.