Butler-Gonzaga finish

[drofficial]

The guy who stole the ball in the final seconds last night committed two fouls. Of course, no "good official" would ever call either one in that case. But by rule both were fouls. He pushed the big kid out of the way (leaning on him AND extending the arm on the push)... Then he committed an offensive fould by dipping his shoulder and creating contact, which gave him a clear advantage by creating space.

It's too bad that basketball is not officiated by the rules. It would make the game much better.

[drofficial]

Forgot the link:

Is This the Best Finish in Butler History - Jones wins it for Butler - YouTube

[JugglingReferee]

[JugglingReferee]

When I watch the video, I hear the buzzer at 0.8 or 0.7 seconds remaining. Anyone else experience that?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

When I watch the video, I hear the buzzer at 0.8 or 0.7 seconds remaining. Anyone else experience that?

Seems that the buzzer did sound before the light on the backboard lit.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

When I watch the video, I hear the buzzer at 0.8 or 0.7 seconds remaining. Anyone else experience that?

Absolutely. Though it didn't occur to me till you mentioned it.

As for the push to create the steal, that was the first thing that came to mind when I saw this, before I even visited the board today.

Regarding the potential player-control foul, by rule, the OP is right, for sure. Sadly, that's one of those things that's just "part of the game" these days.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drofficial

The guy who stole the ball in the final seconds last night committed two fouls. Of course, no "good official" would ever call either one in that case. But by rule both were fouls. He pushed the big kid out of the way (leaning on him AND extending the arm on the push)... Then he committed an offensive fould by dipping his shoulder and creating contact, which gave him a clear advantage by creating space.

It's too bad that basketball is not officiated by the rules. It would make the game much better.

I adamantly disagree with both statements. The pass on the inbounds was extremely bad and both players had their hands on each other as normally happens and because it was thrown way over the head of the offensive player, the defender was right there to make the play. Neither player fell down or could not move so you should not call a foul in that case.

In the play to the basket there was nothing to call either. The ball handler is driving to the basket with a retreating defender that has 4 fouls and trying not to foul or allow your opponent to win the game at the line with no answer when you have the lead. Once again, no one fell to the floor and the defender basically did their job to make the shot difficult.

And most of all did you watch the rest of the game? Where those things you say are fouls called at other parts of the game? That was a physical game and I bet they called more fouls than most call in a HS game (which I always find it ironic when HS officials complain about what is called at the college level).

Just because there is contact does not constitute a foul. And there is a little passage in the rulebook in both NF and NCAA book called "Incidental Contact" which makes it very clear that all contact is not a foul even in severe contact moments. And makes it clear there must be some advantage or disadvantage to some contact. So you want one rule used but forget the other rules I guess? And it is fine if there is a disagreement on plays and situations, but what makes a good official is someone that knows when to be consistent and call things they have always been calling, not call things they have not called in the first part of the game an then call them when the game is on the line. Also if that kind of contact is a foul early, you will really have a longer night or not have any plays at the basket or throw-ins without a foul if those two items are fouls, "by the rules."

These two plays are classic examples of incidental contact IMO and never stood out to me as fouls. Were there other plays in the game I could quibble with? Of course I could, but I do that in my own games. And many of the calls they made IMO were there and obvious. Even many of the calls that crew did not make I mostly agreed with.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I adamantly disagree with both statements. The pass on the inbounds was extremely bad and both players had their hands on each other as normally happens and because it was thrown way over the head of the offensive player, the defender was right there to make the play. Neither player fell down or could not move so you should not call a foul in that case.

In the play to the basket there was nothing to call either. The ball handler is driving to the basket with a retreating defender that has 4 fouls and trying not to foul or allow your opponent to win the game at the line with no answer when you have the lead. Once again, no one fell to the floor and the defender basically did their job to make the shot difficult.

And most of all did you watch the rest of the game? Where those things you say are fouls called at other parts of the game? That was a physical game and I bet they called more fouls than most call in a HS game (which I always find it ironic when HS officials complain about what is called at the college level).

Just because there is contact does not constitute a foul. And there is a little passage in the rulebook in both NF and NCAA book called "Incidental Contact" which makes it very clear that all contact is not a foul even in severe contact moments. And makes it clear there must be some advantage or disadvantage to some contact. So you want one rule used but forget the other rules I guess? And it is fine if there is a disagreement on plays and situations, but what makes a good official is someone that knows when to be consistent and call things they have always been calling, not call things they have not called in the first part of the game an then call them when the game is on the line. Also if that kind of contact is a foul early, you will really have a longer night or not have any plays at the basket or throw-ins without a foul if those two items are fouls, "by the rules."

These two plays are classic examples of incidental contact IMO and never stood out to me as fouls. Were there other plays in the game I could quibble with? Of course I could, but I do that in my own games. And many of the calls they made IMO were there and obvious. Even many of the calls that crew did not make I mostly agreed with.

Peace

Agreed. Inbounds pass was terrible, thrown up for grabs so that anyone could make a play on it.

ON the drive, just incidental contact, and a retreating defender.

The most offensive part....Dickie V...."are you serious? are you serious?"

[drofficial]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

These two plays are classic examples of incidental contact IMO and never stood out to me as fouls.

Peace

My point exactly: When a defender leans and leans, and then clearly pushes with an extended arm, we now call that "incidental contact" simply because the offended player does not fall to the floor. And we wonder why we have trouble with flopping.

When we have bodies on the floor, we have to call something. But if we have an obvious push and the player does not fall down, it's incidental contact. Think of the foolishness of that philosophy.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by drofficial

....Then he committed an offensive fould by dipping his shoulder and creating contact, which gave him a clear advantage by creating space.

....

You have to be F.K.M. Dipping his shoulder and creating contact? Classic fan-boy statement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drofficial

My point exactly: When a defender leans and leans, and then clearly pushes with an extended arm, we now call that "incidental contact" simply because the offended player does not fall to the floor. And we wonder why we have trouble with flopping.

When we have bodies on the floor, we have to call something. But if we have an obvious push and the player does not fall down, it's incidental contact. Think of the foolishness of that philosophy.

It is incidental contact because it did not change the actions of the player. The defender was still able to defend the play with a hand in the face and air. Also I never get the "dipped his shoulder" claim anyway. A player that is running let alone dribbling is going to be leaning forward if they are moving with any speed or aggressiveness. He did not all of a sudden lean forward at the time of contact and all of a sudden create space.

I also disagree with the "we must have a foul" because bodies are on the floor. We must know how they got there, but bodies on the floor might mean someone fell or no one did anything illegal that resulted in such action. Now maybe you are having a hard time understanding that concept, but I tell people all the time that I am not calling a foul unless someone does something illegal.

Also it also is annoying when people try to stand on the rulebook as a moral way to condemn others that do not do what they do. This is a judgment issue more than anything. You might call this a foul and I might not, it does not mean someone is not applying the rules. I think this would not be a good play to call fouls and certainly not if other situations have not been made like this. And I am not sure I would love these fouls if these took place in the first minute of the game. The throw-in was a bad pass that did not give his teammate a chance to make the play and gift wrapped the ball for the defender. The play to the basket happens often and if that is a foul we would be calling fouls every play at the basket. There is going to be contact if unless the defenders allow them to just shoot.

Peace

[jeschmit]

I'm in JRut's corner on this on all accounts. TI pass was horrendous, and there was nothing on the drive for the game-winning bucket.

The coolest part for me is that I remember reffing Roosevelt Jones when he was in HS last year! Its always cool to see things like that.

[Thumper68]

I have agree with Jrut and icallfouls on this one. I don't have a foul on either play. I did watch the whole game and calls were consistent IMO.

[Rich]

I only saw the end. A foul on either the inbounds pass or the drive never once entered my mind and wouldn't have ever entered my mind if I hadn't seen this thread today.

These are not fouls at the college level or high school level or any other level. Contact is not a foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jeschmit

The coolest part for me is that I remember reffing Roosevelt Jones when he was in HS last year! Its always cool to see things like that.

I do too. I believe he went to O'Fallon High School and two former partners of mine worked that school at the Pekin Sectional against Normal Community High School. I believe Jones was a Junior at the time. I did not watch him and think this is where he would be in his career. It is great he is doing well, but that is Illinois basketball for you too.

Peace