Grant time-out or not? (FIBA Rules)

[tif_dk]

Got a question for you guys from one of my games.

During the last two minutes of the game, Team A has requested substitution, and the player is sitting ready at the substitution bench.

Team A then scores a basket, which does not create a substitution opportunity for them (only if Team B scores).

However, by mistake, the table blows the horn and the ref's blow their whistle - thinking that the other team might have asked for a time-out.

After not allowing the substitution, the coach of Team A then requests a time out.

Should this time out be granted?

If the officials had done their job correct, he could not get the time-out, but should he now be allowed in this case, or can the mistake by the officials be disregarded, and should we continue without time-out and substitution?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by tif_dk

Got a question for you guys from one of my games.

During the last two minutes of the game, Team A has requested substitution, and the player is sitting ready at the substitution bench.

Team A then scores a basket, which does not create a substitution opportunity for them (only if Team B scores).

However, by mistake, the table blows the horn and the ref's blow their whistle - thinking that the other team might have asked for a time-out.

After not allowing the substitution, the coach of Team A then requests a time out.

Should this time out be granted?

If the officials had done their job correct, he could not get the time-out, but should he now be allowed in this case, or can the mistake by the officials be disregarded, and should we continue without time-out and substitution?

The timeout is not granted. It is not a timeout opportunity for Team A, as they were the ones that scored.

All that happened by the officials sounding their whistle is the timeout and substitution opportunity for Team B was elongated.

[ODog]

Just so we're clear, Team B scoring does not all of a sudden create a "substitution opportunity" for A. Yes they can call a time-out at that point, during which subs from both teams may enter.

As to the handling of the scenario, if the game were already decided and since a dead ball has been created by the table's error, I'd allow the sub to come in (after explaining how life works to the table personnel, of course). Close game: no sub, play on.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by ODog

Just so we're clear, Team B scoring does not all of a sudden create a "substitution opportunity" for A. Yes they can call a time-out at that point, during which subs from both teams may enter.

As to the handling of the scenario, if the game were already decided and since a dead ball has been created by the table's error, I'd allow the sub to come in (after explaining how life works to the table personnel, of course). Close game: no sub, play on.

In FIBA in the last two minutes of the 4th, it does create a substitution opportunity. If Team A scores, Team B can sub.

[JeroenB]

Originally Posted by Jay R

In FIBA in the last two minutes of the 4th, it does create a substitution opportunity. If Team A scores, Team B can sub.

Correct, however in the OP Team B scores and therefore Team B cannot sub.

As for the timeout, the refs blew the whistle, so isn't it a dead ball and therefore a timeout opportunity? Not really sure how FIBA handles this. Personally I would probably not allow the timeout unless the game is already decided.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Jay R

In FIBA in the last two minutes of the 4th, it does create a substitution opportunity. If Team A scores, Team B can sub.

I'm a donkey and didn't even take note of the (FIBA Rules) designation. Pretend I was never here.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by tif_dk

Got a question for you guys from one of my games.

During the last two minutes of the game, Team A has requested substitution, and the player is sitting ready at the substitution bench.

Team A then scores a basket, which does not create a substitution opportunity for them (only if Team B scores).

However, by mistake, the table blows the horn and the ref's blow their whistle - thinking that the other team might have asked for a time-out.

After not allowing the substitution, the coach of Team A then requests a time out.

Should this time out be granted?

If the officials had done their job correct, he could not get the time-out, but should he now be allowed in this case, or can the mistake by the officials be disregarded, and should we continue without time-out and substitution?

Originally Posted by JeroenB

Correct, however in the OP Team B scores and therefore Team B cannot sub.

As for the timeout, the refs blew the whistle, so isn't it a dead ball and therefore a timeout opportunity? Not really sure how FIBA handles this. Personally I would probably not allow the timeout unless the game is already decided.

I don't agree with you that in the OP, Team B scored.

I already mentioned how FIBA handles this: an erroneous whistles does not create a substitution opportunity that didn't previously exist. Well, at least, that's how I was taught.

[JeroenB]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I don't agree with you that in the OP, Team B scored.

I already mentioned how FIBA handles this: an erroneous whistles does not create a substitution opportunity that didn't previously exist. Well, at least, that's how I was taught.

How do you call two donkeys on one thread?

[canuckrefguy]

In FIBA, there is no specific rule regarding an "inadvertent whistle" or whistle in error, as far as I know.

A time-out opportunity in FIBA exists when the ball is dead; the ball is dead in FIBA when the whistle goes.

In this situation, once the official blows his whistle and stops the game, there would seem to be a time-out opportunity.

Doesn't seem right, but can someone locate, in the FIBA rules or interpretations, an exception where we deny the TO or sub where the buzzer is sounded in error?

Closest I could find was an interpretation case where there was a TO opportunity that ends, and then when the ball's about to be thrown in, a coach requests a TO and the table "sounds the horn in error" and the official blows their whistle. The FIBA interpretations say even though that is a dead ball and TO opportunity, the TO is not granted because the coach was too late.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Originally Posted by tif_dk

Got a question for you guys from one of my games.

During the last two minutes of the game, Team A has requested substitution, and the player is sitting ready at the substitution bench.

Team A then scores a basket, which does not create a substitution opportunity for them (only if Team B scores). [Yes, this is correct only the team that was scored on may initiate substitution opportunity; however once the substitution process has started either team may sub players OR be granted a Time Out]

However, by mistake, the table blows the horn and the ref's blow their whistle - thinking that the other team might have asked for a time-out.

After not allowing the substitution, the coach of Team A then requests a time out.

Should this time out be granted?

If the officials had done their job correct, he could not get the time-out, but should he now be allowed in this case, or can the mistake by the officials be disregarded, and should we continue without time-out and substitution?

You folks tell me if this case applies to the question at hand...

FIBA Rule 4 Playing Regulations [page 22]
Art. 18 Time-Out

18.2.2 A time-out may be granted during a time-out opportunity.

18.2.3 A time-out opportunity begins when:
• For both teams, the ball becomes dead, the game clock is stopped and the
official has ended his communication with the scorer's table.
• For both teams, the ball becomes dead following a successful last or only free throw.
• For the non-scoring team, a field goal is scored.

18.2.4 A time-out opportunity ends when the ball is at the disposal of a player for a throwin or for a first or only free throw

2012 FIBA Interpretations [Page 13]
Statement 7
Art. 18 and 19 clarify when a substitution or time-out opportunity begins and ends. Coaches requesting a time-out or substitution must be aware of these limitations, otherwise the time-out or substitution shall not be granted immediately.

Example 1:
A substitution or time-out opportunity has just ended when coach A runs to the scorer’s table, loudly requesting a substitution or a time-out. The scorer reacts and erroneously sounds the signal. The official blows his whistle and interrupts the game.

Interpretation:
Because of the official’s interruption of the game the ball is dead and the game clock remains stopped, resulting in what would normally be a substitution or time-out opportunity. However, because the request was made too late, the substitution or time-out shall not be granted. The game shall resume immediately.

{Canadian Association of Basketball Officials Case Book. Article 18}

18-7 With 1:28 remaining in the last period, A4 scores a field goal. The ball, after passing through the net, strikes a player’s foot and rolls to the opposite end of the court. The official sounds his whistle and goes to retrieve the ball. Coach A requests a time out. Shall the request be granted?
Yes. Even if Team A was the scoring team, the official stopped the game and the non-scoring team could not benefit from the opportunity to quickly put the ball in play after the basket.

So now if we apply this to the OP, Team A scores and the official sounds the whistle due to a "horn in error" which effectively stops the game. The ball is dead, the clock is stopped and the coach requests the Time Out prior to the ending of the opportunity as outlined in Rule 18.2.4 above so with all that it reads to me that Yes you grant the time out request by Coach A and this also creates a substitution situation for either team.

My 2 cents...

[JugglingReferee]

The OP and the example you cited (with its reason), have a huge difference: the ball "rolls to the opposite end of the court" which prevents B with "the opportunity to quickly put the ball in play".

That difference is key, and imho, changes the ruling to not granting the timeout. You see, in the OP, the table simply screwed up. In your example, the delay was due to, even if by accident, the players.