Team control foul clarification

[DKremer]

Please clarify whether team control (and therefore TC fouls) end with a try (shot). We had an overtime foul today (we were well into the bonus by then) on a common rebounding foul committed by a member of the (opposing) team whose player had just taken the shot. Team control? Btw, if it matters, the player fouled had the ball in hand when the foul was committed but was still in the air: I know it's not in the book, but imagine an over-the-back situation.

[just another ref]

When a try is in flight, there is no team control. If there is a foul by either team on the rebound, a team that is in the bonus should shoot.

[maven]

4-12-2:

A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.
c. During an interrupted dribble.


4-12-3:

Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.

[DKremer]

Thanks, that was my belief but the young ref working the game said team control, no bonus. I found it particularly interesting since his partner (who called the foul in the first place) had taken care to point to the would-be free throw shooter. It's Rec, and, since I'm coaching 12-yr-olds, I didn't want to force a confrontation either between me & the refs or between the 2 of them, but he explained it as a team control foul after the game & left me wondering whether I'd missed something.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by DKremer

Thanks, that was my belief but the young ref working the game said team control, no bonus. I found it particularly interesting since his partner (who called the foul in the first place) had taken care to point to the would-be free throw shooter. It's Rec, and, since I'm coaching 12-yr-olds, I didn't want to force a confrontation either between me & the refs or between the 2 of them, but he explained it as a team control foul after the game & left me wondering whether I'd missed something.

I believe the OP said that the player had the ball in his hand when the foul was called but was in the air. This would be team control situation because the ball was not released for the try when the fould occurred. Continuation does not apply because it only applies to a foul on the shooter. So, based on the OP, it would be a TC foul.

OK, just re-read the OP and it sounds like B had rebounded the ball and was fouled while coming down with the rebound. If this is correct, you should have been shooting bonus FT's. Your player rebounded the ball and was fouled by the other team. Your team, the team in contol, did not commit the fould so how could it be team control???

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mregor

I believe the OP said that the player had the ball in his hand when the foul was called but was in the air. This would be team control situation because the ball was not released for the try when the fould occurred. Continuation does not apply because it only applies to a foul on the shooter. So, based on the OP, it would be a TC foul.

Might wanna read it again.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Might wanna read it again.

Yep, I originally saw it as the shooter had the ball in his hand when the foul ocurred off ball. My bad.

[DKremer]

Thanks for your reply, Mregor. I added the part about rebounder having the ball in her hands because I thought there was a small chance that there was a kind of continuum thing involved - if the ball is in flight toward the basket then X, ball has hit the rim but not touched a player then Y, etc - while thinking that was even more unlikely than the idea that there could still be team control once a shot has been released (because the rule was changed to make control easier to interpret/apply, not harder as the continuum notion would). Maven's excerpt makes things crystal clear and I wouldn't have had to ask at all if I could've read my downloaded rules (computers!). More to your point about how could there be any doubt about control once the rebound was in player's hands: in trying to give the benefit of the doubt, I was thinking there was room for disagreement on exactly when the foul occurred - it may have started when the ball was between rim & hands & ended when the ball was in hands.

The whole scenario raises an interesting idea about the exact moment both of a foul & the exact moment a shot is released (without replay, red lights, orange squares that light up, etc) - players trying to position for a rebound while another is shooting - & how difficult it is to see 2 things at once. I saw a high school game Friday night in which a double foul off the ball was called at essentially the same instant that a (3-point) shot was released & then went in the basket: after considerable consternation & discussion between the refs, coaches & refs, it was no basket but there was simply no way the ref who called the double foul could have seen the shot & no way his partner knew exactly when the foul occurred relative to the 3-point shot since he was looking at the shooter's feet. I couldn't tell you whether I heard the whistle after the ball had left shooter's fingertips or before and I was watching shooter closely (looking at shooting form cause good shooter was having a miserable shooting night). So: interesting. Btw, possession stayed with shooting team but I think that was on alternating held-ball arrow which seems wrong for double foul (?)

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by DKremer

Thanks for your reply, Mregor. I added the part about rebounder having the ball in her hands because I thought there was a small chance that there was a kind of continuum thing involved - if the ball is in flight toward the basket then X, ball has hit the rim but not touched a player then Y, etc - while thinking that was even more unlikely than the idea that there could still be team control once a shot has been released (because the rule was changed to make control easier to interpret/apply, not harder as the continuum notion would). Maven's excerpt makes things crystal clear and I wouldn't have had to ask at all if I could've read my downloaded rules (computers!). More to your point about how could there be any doubt about control once the rebound was in player's hands: in trying to give the benefit of the doubt, I was thinking there was room for disagreement on exactly when the foul occurred - it may have started when the ball was between rim & hands & ended when the ball was in hands.

The whole scenario raises an interesting idea about the exact moment both of a foul & the exact moment a shot is released (without replay, red lights, orange squares that light up, etc) - players trying to position for a rebound while another is shooting - & how difficult it is to see 2 things at once. I saw a high school game Friday night in which a double foul off the ball was called at essentially the same instant that a (3-point) shot was released & then went in the basket: after considerable consternation & discussion between the refs, coaches & refs, it was no basket but there was simply no way the ref who called the double foul could have seen the shot & no way his partner knew exactly when the foul occurred relative to the 3-point shot since he was looking at the shooter's feet. I couldn't tell you whether I heard the whistle after the ball had left shooter's fingertips or before and I was watching shooter closely (looking at shooting form cause good shooter was having a miserable shooting night). So: interesting. Btw, possession stayed with shooting team but I think that was on alternating held-ball arrow which seems wrong for double foul (?)

If the double foul happened after the release of the shot, the basket should count, the double foul is reported and ball is brought back in at POI which would be an end line throw in with option to run the end line after a scored basket. If the foul was before the shot, you would report the double foul, and POI which would be back to the team in control. The only thing I am not sure about is if you treat it differently if the shooter has released the ball or not on the try? If I had to guess, I would think that the ball is still live in this situation if the shooter is in the act of shooting but hasn't yet released the ball. But the smart people will be along shortly to let us know....

[just another ref]

Ball is dead on the double foul if it has not been released on the try.