Speaking to a coach

[Terrapins Fan]

I think this is my weakest area.

I coached for 11 years. You would think I could talk to them. I can't.

Help me.

Coach complained that a 5'3" player in the lane should have been called for 3 seconds because he was in the lane.

He drove to the basket, got trapped by 3 players over 6' and after a second or 2 passed the ball out of the lane. He was still trapped without a way to get out for another second or 2. So I will say he was in the lane for 4 to 5 seconds. Shot was taken by this team mate after he left the lane.

I did not call 3 seconds, as I saw no advantage to him ( 5'3" tall ) being in the lane with three 6' tall players.

Coach yelled and yelled about it as we went down the floor, for the little time I had following the ball down as trail, I explained " I didn't see him having an advantage, he wasn't going to box anyone off and he wasn't going to get a rebound" Coach came back with "the rule is 3 seconds!"

Next time down the floor, he is still yelling about that play. Mine you he had an 11-4 lead after 1 Q ( this was the 2nd Q ) and now we are in a 11-10 game. I give him the stop sign. He listens, but later he says " I want to know what advantage has to do with it"

He is a JV coach, I am doing the Varsity game tomorrow night. I have no doubt he will ask.

How can it be easily explained? Would you have called the 3 seconds on a 5'3" kid who is not trying to shoot the ball, but trying to get out of the lane? BTW, how many 3 second calls do you make per game? We rarely call them, again, it's based on advantage/disadvantage. If I have a 6' plus kid there, I warn him and I call it if they don't move. I'd say no more than once a game, but most likely once every 2 or 3 games. To me it's about flow.

His team went on to win the game by 6.

[JetMetFan]

Here's are NFHS 9-7-1 and 9-7-3

A player shall not remain for three seconds in that part of his/her free-throw lane between the end line and the farther edge of the free-throw line while the ball is in control of his/her team in his/her frontcourt.

Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.

Since there isn't a height allowance in there...

If the kid is still in there after 5-6 seconds it's tough to argue he's not gaining an advantage, regardless of height. Put it this way: his height didn't prevent him from getting there in the first place, did it?

As for speaking to the coach, you should know as a former coach yourself the less you can say, the better. If you'd stopped with "Coach, I didn't see him having an advantage" the yelling probably stops a little sooner. He may not have liked it but he might've moved on.

[Terrapins Fan]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Here's are NFHS 9-7-1 and 9-7-3



Since there isn't a height allowance in there...

If the kid is still in there after 5-6 seconds it's tough to argue he's not gaining an advantage, regardless of height. Put it this way: his height didn't prevent him from getting there in the first place, did it?

I can argue advantage/disadvantage. His is 5'3" tall, he is not boxing anyone out, he is not going to get a rebound from 3 players who are 6' tall or taller. He was trying to get out and was trapped.

That's why I didn't see any advantage to making that call. JMO.

I work with guys who tell me " we are NOT calling 3 seconds tonight, I don't care if they are in there or 7 seconds"

They are the R, that's what we do.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I can argue advantage/disadvantage. His is 5'3" tall, he is not boxing anyone out, he is not going to get a rebound from 3 players who are 6' tall or taller. He was trying to get out and was trapped.

That's why I didn't see any advantage to making that call. JMO.

I work with guys who tell me " we are NOT calling 3 seconds tonight, I don't care if they are in there or 7 seconds"

They are the R, that's what we do.

You misunderstand the role of the R. They don't get to decide what you do and don't call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I can argue advantage/disadvantage. His is 5'3" tall, he is not boxing anyone out, he is not going to get a rebound from 3 players who are 6' tall or taller. He was trying to get out and was trapped.

That's why I didn't see any advantage to making that call. JMO.

I work with guys who tell me " we are NOT calling 3 seconds tonight, I don't care if they are in there or 7 seconds"

They are the R, that's what we do.

You're thinking too much. If the player is trapped in there like you say, call the violation and ship it.

And yeah, way too much talking with the coach. Since when do we discuss advantage / disadvantage on violations with coaches?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I can argue advantage/disadvantage. His is 5'3" tall, he is not boxing anyone out, he is not going to get a rebound from 3 players who are 6' tall or taller. He was trying to get out and was trapped.

That's why I didn't see any advantage to making that call. JMO.

I work with guys who tell me " we are NOT calling 3 seconds tonight, I don't care if they are in there or 7 seconds"

They are the R, that's what we do.

Interesting. I wouldn't be letting anyone (let alone an "R") tell me not to call 3s after 7s.

Would I have a whistle at exactly 3.0s for a 5'3" guy stuck in the lane? Probably not. Would I not call because he's just 5'3"? Nope.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I work with guys who tell me " we are NOT calling 3 seconds tonight, I don't care if they are in there or 7 seconds"

They are the R, that's what we do.

So getting back to your question of how to speak to a coach: based on this, what are you going to say to a coach who complains about players of similar height being in the lane for seven seconds with no call?

Sometimes we can create our own "situations" by straying a little too far from the rule book.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

That's why I didn't see any advantage to making that call. JMO.

The advantage is that team B has to have someone to guard him in there regardless. 5-6 seconds is WAY too much time. If 5-6 seconds is OK, then what is NOT OK, 7 or 8 or 9? Make the call and move along. I doubt the team A coach would have much of an argument for an official enforcing a clear rule.

When I was a coach, I always told my players, "Don't pass OUT of the lane." For obvious reasons.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

He drove to the basket, got trapped by 3 players over 6' and after a second or 2 passed the ball out of the lane. He was still trapped without a way to get out for another second or 2. So I will say he was in the lane for 4 to 5 seconds. Shot was taken by this team mate after he left the lane.

I did not call 3 seconds, as I saw no advantage to him ( 5'3" tall ) being in the lane with three 6' tall players.

First, the sizes of the players involved plays no part in this situation, in my opinion. You say he was trapped, so we take your word for that. Was he actively, obviously trying to escape this trap and get out. If so, he probably gets some slack from me. If not, if he's just standing in the middle of the lane, trapped or not, there comes a time when I call it. This is not something I usually count.

"He's been in there too long." tweet

Coach yelled and yelled about it as we went down the floor, for the little time I had following the ball down as trail, I explained " I didn't see him having an advantage, he wasn't going to box anyone off and he wasn't going to get a rebound" Coach came back with "the rule is 3 seconds!"

If you're purely discussing the rule, the coach is right. A/D is not a part of the rule as written. I would not mention that to the coach.

Next time down the floor, he is still yelling about that play.......... later he says " I want to know what advantage has to do with it"

How can it be easily explained?

At this point, it can't, and it shouldn't be. At most, a one word explanation here, (E NUFF) then whack if necessary.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I work with guys who tell me " we are NOT calling 3 seconds tonight, I don't care if they are in there or 7 seconds"

Nobody makes a blanket statement like that to me about what not to call, especially if that statement has no rule support.

[johnny d]

As soon as the coach comes at you with the "the rule is 3 seconds" statement, Ive got ok coach you have voiced your displeasure, we are moving on. then, since this sounds like a lower level game and i dont have the patience to put up with nonsense from a lower level coach about something as trivial as a 3 second call, i am calling a 3 second violation on him as soon as he has anyone in the lane for exactly 3 seconds. he will get the picture real fast about wanting the rules called exactly as written without any discretion on the part of the officials.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I work with guys who tell me " we are NOT calling 3 seconds tonight, I don't care if they are in there or 7 seconds"

They are the R, that's what we do.

If someone said that to me, I'd ask him what other rules are we supposed to ignore - traveling, illegal dribble, inbound violations, or better yet - flagrant fouls?

[Raymond]

Had a BV game where kid about that same height got callled fof 3 seconds when he didn't leave paint after passing ball. Coach in my ear joked his player too short to get that call.

Bottomline, it was an obvious violation.

[Twinfan]

I have had a similar "problem" speaking with coaches in certain situations. An honest personal review of my difficult situations reveals that I was having a problem because I was trying to justify something when I was incorrect. From your description of your scenario TerrapinsFan, that's what is causing your problem. You can't argue for advantage because there is no advantage to be considered in assessing this violation. If a player has a brain fart while dribbling with no pressure in his own backcourt and double dribbles, do we not call it just because he gained no advantage? Nope, violation, tweet, we're going the other way. Call the 3 secs and be done with it. Then your discussions with coaches become very short and simple.

[maven]

Advantage/disadvantage concerns fouls, not violations. 3 seconds can be called too tight (like traveling, and unlike OOB), but if the defense can get a turnover by legally trapping a player in the lane, why wouldn't you call it?

If some OOO partner announced that "we" weren't calling 3 seconds that night, I would likely have 3 of them in the first quarter.

But the OP seems to be mainly about speaking to a coach (hence the thread title). Answer questions, ignore comments, enforce the 3 P's.