Speaking to a coach

[maven]

Advantage/disadvantage concerns fouls, not violations. 3 seconds can be called too tight (like traveling, and unlike OOB), but if the defense can get a turnover by legally trapping a player in the lane, why wouldn't you call it?

If some OOO partner announced that "we" weren't calling 3 seconds that night, I would likely have 3 of them in the first quarter.

But the OP seems to be mainly about speaking to a coach (hence the thread title). Answer questions, ignore comments, enforce the 3 P's.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by maven

Advantage/disadvantage concerns fouls, not violations.

(Note: Don't confuse advantage/disadvantage with the Tower Philosophy which is similar, but is not exactly the same as advantage/disadvantage.)

Prove it.

It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

Rules include both fouls, and violations. The "Intent and Purpose" preamble to the rulebook refers to rules, it doesn't solely refer to fouls.

I even got the late, great, Jurassic Referee to admit that advantage/disadvantage may apply to some violations, and three seconds was one of the two he put into that category. The second was a ten second count on a free throw. Getting Jurassic Referee to partially agree with me was definitely the highlight of my Forum career. That was the closest that I ever got to becoming an esteemed member, I peaked, flamed out, and it's been all downhill from there.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by maven

Advantage/disadvantage concerns fouls, not violations. 3 seconds can be called too tight (like traveling, and unlike OOB), but if the defense can get a turnover by legally trapping a player in the lane, why wouldn't you call it?

Because that was never the purpose nor the intent of the 3 second rule.

If the player is attempting to get out but is blocked by an opponent, I will not call 3 seconds.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

He drove to the basket, got trapped by 3 players over 6' and after a second or 2 passed the ball out of the lane. He was still trapped without a way to get out for another second or 2. So I will say he was in the lane for 4 to 5 seconds. Shot was taken by this team mate after he left the lane.

I did not call 3 seconds, as I saw no advantage to him ( 5'3" tall ) being in the lane with three 6' tall players.

First, the sizes of the players involved plays no part in this situation, in my opinion. You say he was trapped, so we take your word for that. Was he actively, obviously trying to escape this trap and get out. If so, he probably gets some slack from me. If not, if he's just standing in the middle of the lane, trapped or not, there comes a time when I call it. This is not something I usually count.

"He's been in there too long." tweet

Coach yelled and yelled about it as we went down the floor, for the little time I had following the ball down as trail, I explained " I didn't see him having an advantage, he wasn't going to box anyone off and he wasn't going to get a rebound" Coach came back with "the rule is 3 seconds!"

If you're purely discussing the rule, the coach is right. A/D is not a part of the rule as written. I would not mention that to the coach.

Next time down the floor, he is still yelling about that play.......... later he says " I want to know what advantage has to do with it"

How can it be easily explained?

At this point, it can't, and it shouldn't be. At most, a one word explanation here, (E NUFF) then whack if necessary.

[Jesse James]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I think this is my weakest area.

I coached for 11 years.

I explained " I didn't see him having an advantage, he wasn't going to box anyone off and he wasn't going to get a rebound" Coach came back with "the rule is 3 seconds!"

Probably sounds to the coach like you're still trying to coach, and it's understandable he wouldn't appreciate it. If a ref had told you that in your coaching days, would you? A kid CAN box out even if he's 5-3, and little guys quicker to the ball CAN outrebound bigger guys.

"He was trying to leave the lane and was impeded, so I held off" is a plausible explanation that's a lot easier to hear.

[Tio]

I think communicating with coaches is among the hardest aspects of officiating to grasp let alone master.

I have a couple nuggets of advice based on your situation:

1. We (officials) do not choose what to call... we call what we see occur in the game. We referee all players to the same standard regardless of height, position, or skill level (insert the NBA joke here). So when you mention no advantage gained to the coach, you cannot win.

2. At lower levels, you will have less experienced coaches that will whine for calls like 3 seconds (much like unknowledgeable fans do). I would use it as an opportunity to communicate with the coach. You never know, he could be taking over the varsity team in the near future. You can gain rapport & credibility with him that can start the all-important trust process.

[JRutledge]

There was way too much conversation about a violation IMO. Even if you didn't call if for that reason, doubt I would have said that much about why I did not call a violation. Even on a foul I am only going to say so much. You will never win with a coach that has a bias to their team and if you called that against their team they would find a reason to not have you call that. Leave the conversations for the bigger things in the game, not a 3 second call made or missed.

Peace

[ARef]

Terrapins Fan, I agree that Advantage/Disadvantage is a factor in the 3 second call, ie. I'm not going to call anyone for 3 seconds because they are hovering at the free throw line with one foot in the lane. Here is where the wheels come off:

1) The player is triple teamed in the lane followed by kick out pass. If that leads to an immediate shot then we definitely had an advantage created for the offense.
2) "I didn't have any advantage" is where the conversation with the coach needs to end. Ongoing descriptions of block out plays and height isn't going to lead to anything good.
3) Talking about the play with a coach for 3 trips is not going to help you. Short conversations and small words will get you out of this much faster. If he persists your stop sign should mean just that, "STOP". Otherwise he has free reign to walk right through it.

If you have the rules on your side argue the rules. If you have the facts on your side argue the facts. In this case I don't know that you had either. He had you on the letter of the law and, if we are to reward good defensive play, he had you on the spirit of the law. This conversation for me would be "I didn't see what you have." End of conversation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ARef

If you have the rules on your side argue the rules. If you have the facts on your side argue the facts.

Excellent. I'll remember this one.

[ARef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Excellent. I'll remember this one.

Thanks. I'm gald you like it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Are

I agree that Advantage/Disadvantage is a factor in the 3 second call.

What? Three seconds is a violation, not a foul. Are you implying that advantage/disadvantage may be used for some violations?

[ARef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What? Three seconds is a violation, not a foul. Are you implying that advantage/disadvantage may be used for some violations?

Shocked! Shocked I am to discover there is gambling going on in this establishment!

Next I will tell you that the black line all the way around the outside is only a suggestion.