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Mon Feb 24, 2003, 02:08pm
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Speaking of "time," how would it affect this play in OBR?
Abel hits a ball off the fence, touches 1B, misses 2B, and slides safely into 3B on a close play. The ball shoots through into the dugout. We know that Abel is awarded home but can return to touch 2B while the ball is dead. However, if Abel immediately advances and touches home, he cannot legally return to touch 2B. But what if the ball hadn't gone out of play and Abel had slid safely into 3B and become tangled with F5? Suppose Abel, possibly injured, asked for time? Would the granting of time then prevent him from being able to return to touch 2B? Would he have to wait until the ump put the ball back in play to attempt to return? I distinctly remember such a play in American Legion 30+ years ago, but I don't remember what brought it about. The pitcher stepped on the rubber, the ump said, "Play," and the runner on 3B tried to get back to 2B before the appeal there. (He was out easily.) I guess the question is, Are "time out" and "dead ball" exactly the same?
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide! 
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Tue Feb 25, 2003, 11:08am
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IMO, a player entering the game for an injured player should be granted the same rights that the injured player had to complete his running responsibilities. In either case of the ball entering the dugout or the official declaring time due to injury, I'd grant the substitute the right to correct the error within the rules.
IMO, calling of "time" causes the ball to become dead. If continuing play was occurring---including an appeal by the defense for the miss of 2B---then I'd not declare time whether I was the official responsible for the call at 2B or not. I'd still see the appeal occurring. If the defense did not immediately make such an appeal before time is called, they still retain their right to appeal when the ball becomes alive. Still, it's likely to do them little good if the substitute runner returns to touch 2B during the dead ball situation---a right he also retains. I've not seen your scenario addressed anywhere by specific caseplay, but that's how I'd rule based on the existing wording and my understanding of the rule. Just my opinion, Freix
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Tue Feb 25, 2003, 04:15pm
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This is an interesting question.. i think.
1. I KNOW that if we had Ball out of play.. and an AWARD (home).. he could shuffle back to 2nd touch, touch 3rd, touch home, while the DEF looked on unapprovingly and nothing they can do to stop it. 2. BUT play 2. the catcher has the wild throw backed up. Action has ceased. Runner is touching bag with his fingertip and holding up the hand for TIME. GRANTED. Now 1 second AFTER that time the DEF mngr was going to tell Catcher to GO TAG that runner and tell you he missed 2nd (the appeal). IOW - they know. 3. I don't see how that runner can "run bases" although backwards, during a DEAD BALL. I think he is hosed, and must STAY at 3rd. I'm not even convinced he could try to RUN BACK to 2nd upon the call of PLAY. I mean, could he get a NEGATIVE LEAD? Gotta go, the Mothership is calling again....
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Tue Feb 25, 2003, 05:20pm
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You're right, Moosey...........
I can't remember what I've been drinking, but I didn't envision the play correctly..... Ain't no way I'm letting these guys return when the ball didn't go to DBT.... They certainly wouldn't have gone back if ball remained live...... I'm smellin' fish................ Checking into this one..........be back later........ Freix
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Tue Feb 25, 2003, 05:39pm
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Yes, what if a runner is safe at 3B but somehow time gets called. Obviously he can't return during time out (though he can during a mere dead ball). But can he try to return to touch 2B when the ball is put in play, or is he stuck at 3B?
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Tue Feb 25, 2003, 05:47pm
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Okay, Moose............I'm back........
IMO, the ability of the runner to return in this instance ONLY APPLIES when being allowed to return due to an award being issued. Otherwise, if he's reached his advance base, no return is going to allowed during a dead ball. From 7.05 Endnotes:
In my original reply to Greymule's situation, I was envisioning an award and thinking that either the runner or his sub could still return, which I would allow if the ball went to DBT. However, without the ball going to DBT, I'd not allow the runner at 3B to go back and correct his error merely because the ball became dead due to calling time. If you let that happen, though, it might sure stop those defenders from asking for time merely because the ball is returned to the infield and they wish to kill play.......LOL. Good question, Greymule......... I hadn't seen it or thought about it before, but I'm not letting him go back without a due award after he's touched his next advanced base. Just my opinion, Freix
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Tue Feb 25, 2003, 05:58pm
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Quote:
The only way the ball could become live would be for the pitcher to be on the rubber ready to pitch, correct? Here's rule from rule 7.01:
If he attempted return illegally after the ball became live, I'd call time and declare him out based on 7.01. Methinks the difference is the ability to go back and retouch during a dead ball only if he is awarded bases and he has not touched an advance base from his location at the time the ball becomes dead. Maybe some of our wizards want to jump in rather than just lurk.....LOL. Freix
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Tue Feb 25, 2003, 11:14pm
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Thanks, Freix. That makes sense. After the once instance I did see, I asked the ump why the runner wasn't out for running the bases in the reverse order, and he said that the runner was trying not to make a travesty of the game but simply to retouch a base he had missed. Maybe they shouldn't have allowed the attempt, but on the other hand perhaps the play was legal back then. That umpiring crew was very good, and one of them soon embarked on a long MLB career.
Has the OBR/MLB book changed at all since the early 1970s?
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Wed Feb 26, 2003, 01:45pm
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I know some rules are different between OBR and FED. In FED the runner could not return to touch 2nd after he had touched 3rd and the ball became dead - for any reason, whether the ball entered dead ball territory or the umpire grants a time out making the ball dead also. NO CAN RETURN.
FED 5-2-2b. a runner may return to a base he left too soon on a caught fly ball or that was not touched during a live ball; EXCEPTION: A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, MAY NOT RETURN and shall be called out upon proper and successful appeal. Is there a website that delineates the OBR and FED differences?
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"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
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Wed Feb 26, 2003, 05:59pm
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BRD?
Board? Big Red Dog? BJMoose's Record of Decision? Bfair's Righteous Discussion?
These acronyms get me at times. What is BRD?
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"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
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Wed Feb 26, 2003, 06:26pm
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Baseball Rule Differences, by Carl Childress. It covers the differences among Fed, NCAA, NAIA, and OBR rules and includes many examples, rulings, and opinions. Available on the officiating.com site. It is indispensable.
Word of the week: acronym: a word formed from the first (or first few) letters of a series of words.
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Wed Feb 26, 2003, 07:05pm
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Quote:
The "runner" in our situation has not "legally acquired title" (he didn't touch 2B! OBR 7.02) to his base, and thus this clause of 7.01 doesn't apply. P-Sz
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Thu Feb 27, 2003, 02:13am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski
Quote:
From JEA 7.01 Professional Interpretation:
Originally adopted to eliminate a trick play and unorthodox strategy, this rule accomplished its purpose. Such shenanigans are unheard of in the modern game. Umpires should be alert and declare out any runner who should return to his previous base after the pitcher has assumed his position on the rubber. This could most logically happen when the runner felt that he "left too soon" on a tag-up and would attempt to return before an appeal was made on him. Evans examples a runner returning to correct a baserunning infraction, but still provides that the runner would be declared out for the action of initiating return after the pitcher takes his position on the rubber. Just my opinion, Freix
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Thu Feb 27, 2003, 02:24am
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Quote:
Freix
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