Lost time out...

[BillyMac]

I only want the table to tell me when the team has been granted all of their timeouts, or have been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. I will only tell the coach when his team has been granted all of their timeouts, or when his team has been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. This keeps me out of trouble.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I only want the table to tell me when the team has been granted all of their timeouts, or have been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. I will only tell the coach when his team has been granted all of their timeouts, or when his team has been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. This keeps me out of trouble.

Basically, if the table makes a mistake and tells the coach he has one timeout left, he calls it, then they say he had none, you're in the clear because you weren't involved? So you think the appropriate thing to do in that sitch is assess the T since there's no blood on your hands? Is that what you're saying?

[SCalScoreKeeper]

wow that is one bad official scorer! was the AD of the host institution notified that he should probably start looking for a replacement official scorer? icall-your crew handled this perfectly IMHO

[Freddy]

Tell me this didn't happen in the state of Washington. Please.




(sorry )

[jdmara]

When there was a question about the number of TO's why wasn't the visiting book consulted to see if they match? Yes, the official book is the official book but why not compare them and practice a little preventative officiating?

-Josh

[JugglingReferee]

There's guy I now that uses an elastic to track TOs and fouls (whether or not we're in the bonus).

He does it because the score keeping is atrocious at times.

To combat the problem in some tournaments that I've worked, where coaches think they have more TOs than what the table shows, I have taught the table that the more you document things, the less chance that a challenge to your record keeping will be made. So I have them record the quarter and time remaining, along with the location of the the ball, when the TO is granted. The look at the scorer's face, when the coach walks away in a huff after given this information, is priceless.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by jdmara

When there was a question about the number of TO's why wasn't the visiting book consulted to see if they match? Yes, the official book is the official book but why not compare them and practice a little preventative officiating?

-Josh

In my own experiences as a scorekeeper, a number of officials seem to understand the portion of the rule that says the referee shall accept the record of the official score book, but ignore the second half of the sentence that allows the official to rule otherwise in the presence of definitive knowledge.

I was scorekeeper at a MS-G doubleheader a few years back where the home team had no scorer at the table for the 7th grade game and the start of the 8th grade game. It was until the final period when it looked as if the home team took an excessive timeout that someone suddenly appeared with a score book claiming that the home team still had a time out left.

I tried to question how that book could be accurate since the book wasn't there to start the game and could not have accurate information for both teams (because nobody was around for me to submit our roster to) and such, but the referee was steadfast that the home book is always the official book and whatever is in it stands.

So I have them record the quarter and time remaining, along with the location of the the ball, when the TO is granted. The look at the scorer's face, when the coach walks away in a huff after given this information, is priceless.

I always record time/period/who asked when granted. It's helped out in the past. At an old rec tournament I used to score at. A team was sure they had more time outs left, but when I read off when each one was taken and by whom, that was persuasive enough for the officials.

[JRutledge]

This is why I am not a fan of telling coaches what they have on my own. I do not try to find out and I do not try to tell everyone what the situation is as a normal practice. The teams should be following this on their own and if there is an issue then we can get involved, but as a general rule, I stay out of these. But people feel like this is so important and do it and here is why I want to stay out of these bookkeeping issue.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by jdmara

When there was a question about the number of TO's why wasn't the visiting book consulted to see if they match? Yes, the official book is the official book but why not compare them and practice a little preventative officiating?

-Josh

Both teams knew the TO situation, I thought I stated as much. That is why we had the discussion with both coaches. But in the end, the official book is where the correct information is supposed to be.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

wow that is one bad official scorer! was the AD of the host institution notified that he should probably start looking for a replacement official scorer? icall-your crew handled this perfectly IMHO

it could have gotten ugly. we notified our assignor and will let the league handle it. not sure there is anything to do, but we were able to avoid a potentially bad situation

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Basically, if the table makes a mistake and tells the coach he has one timeout left, he calls it, then they say he had none, you're in the clear because you weren't involved? So you think the appropriate thing to do in that sitch is assess the T since there's no blood on your hands? Is that what you're saying?

God invented assistant coaches to keep their mouths shut, to keep their butts on the bench, and to keep track of granted timeouts. Officials are not expected to know, and communicate, any more timeout information then is required by the rules. If the table communicates the wrong information to the coach, and then the coach requests, and is granted, an excess (illegal) time out, then I don't believe that we can give his team a pass, and that we must charge the team with a technical foul. Even if it's the visiting coach, he still has a scorekeeper at the bench to, hopefully, prevent this situation.

If the table forgot to inform me that the team had been granted their last timeout, with me, obviously, not communicating this to the coach, and then he requested, and was granted, another timeout, at which time the scorekeeper informed me that the coach requested, and was granted, an excess (illegal) timeout, then I would still charge a technical foul to the team. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't believe that invoking 2-3, or advantage/disadvantage is allowed, by rule here, although if an official chose to go this route, I would not point out the undercarriage of a bus to him.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

When I sit on the bench that's exactly what I do!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

God invented assistant coaches to keep their mouths shut, to keep their butts on the bench, and to keep track of granted timeouts. Officials are not expected to know, and communicate, any more timeout information then is required by the rules. If the table communicates the wrong information to the coach, and then the coach requests, and is granted, an excess (illegal) time out, then I don't believe that we can give his team a pass, and that we must charge the team with a technical foul. Even if it's the visiting coach, he still has a scorekeeper at the bench to, hopefully, prevent this situation.

If the table forgot to inform me that the team had been granted their last timeout, with me, obviously, not communicating this to the coach, and then he requested, and was granted, another timeout, at which time the scorekeeper informed me that the coach requested, and was granted, an excess (illegal) timeout, then I would still charge a technical foul to the team. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't believe that invoking 2-3, or advantage/disadvantage is allowed, by rule here, although if an official chose to go this route, I would not point out the undercarriage of a bus to him.

IOW, you have no interest in managing the game. You have no interest in communicating with the table or coaches. You have no interest in preventative officiating. You're just out there to blow your whistle.

That's not an acceptable mode of operation here.

Thanks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You have no interest in managing the game. You have no interest in communicating with the table or coaches. You have no interest in preventative officiating. You're just out there to blow your whistle.

In reference to timeouts, maybe. If a coach, for whatever reason, is misinformed regarding the number, if any, of his timeouts remaining, and if he requests, and is granted, a sixth time out in regulation, I won't charge the technical foul right away. I will get together with both scorekeepers, as well as my partner, to try to get the most definitive information possible, and maybe determine the cause of the mistaken communication. However, if it's his sixth timeout in regulation, I will charge the technical foul, to not do so would put the other team at a disadvantage, unless of course, you are also going to give the other team an "extra" timeout.

And what if that sixth timeout was requested, and granted, to avoid a ten second violation, a probable turnover, when the official's count was up to nine, with the ball still deep in the backcourt? Do you think that the opposing coach is going to be pleased with the other team getting "extra" timeout to avoid a violation, and probable turnover, without any penalty? I think not.

Or what if the "extra timeout is to avoid a situation where his player is trapped by two defenders, against a boundary corner, with a turnover, by a steal, or a five second violation, very probable? "Extra" timeout allowed? Again, I think not.

Rarely do additional wrongs make up for a previous wrong. Things just get "wronger" and much tougher to explain when your assigning commissioner calls later that night, or the next morning. One can rarely go wrong by following the rules, even after mistakes are made.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In reference to timeouts, maybe. If a coach, for whatever reason, is misinformed regarding the number, if any, of his timeouts remaining, and if he requests, and is granted, a sixth time out in regulation, I won't charge the technical foul right away. I will get together with both scorekeepers, as well as my partner, to try to get the most definitive information possible, and maybe determine the cause of the mistaken communication. However, if it's his sixth timeout in regulation, I will charge the technical foul, to not do so would put the other team at a disadvantage, unless of course, you are also going to give the other team an "extra" timeout.

And what if that sixth timeout was requested, and granted, to avoid a ten second violation, a probable turnover, when the official's count was up to nine, with the ball still deep in the backcourt? Do you think that the opposing coach is going to be pleased with the other team getting "extra" timeout to avoid a violation, and probable turnover, without any penalty? I think not.

Or what if the "extra timeout is to avoid a situation where his player is trapped by two defenders, against a boundary corner, with a turnover, by a steal, or a five second violation, very probable? "Extra" timeout allowed? Again, I think not.

Rarely do additional wrongs make up for a precious wrong. Things just get "wronger" and much tougher to explain when your assigning commissioner cal later that night, or the next morning. One can rarely go wrong by following the rule, even after mistakes are made.

You're talking about handling things when the cat is already out of the bag. I'm talking about becoming involved and preventing it from happening to begin with.

Sitting back and ignoring such situations until you get to blow your whistle is exactly what created this situation. You're trying to avoid the situation by ignoring it and taking no ownership of what is going on in your game.

"Well, if I don't know what's going on, I can just sit back, let it happen and then I get to blow my whistle."

Manage the game, manage the scorer's table and manage the players and coaches and you prevent such situations from happening.