Lost time out...

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Manage the game, manage the scorer's table and manage the players and coaches and you prevent such situations from happening.

Based on the OP my question would be what was there to manage? If the crew follows procedure and doesn't say anything to the head coach - since the crew was told the home team had one timeout remaining - there shouldn't be anything else to do at that point.

If that coach doesn't call a TO for the rest of the game, no harm done. If the table tells him he has a TO, he calls one then the scorers figure out he doesn't have one, managing the game means dealing with an excessive timeout.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You're talking about handling things when the cat is already out of the bag. I'm talking about becoming involved and preventing it from happening to begin with.

Preventive Officiating Regarding Timeouts (Managing The Game With Something Other Then Blowing The Whistle):

1) As the referee, tell both scorekeepers, pregame, to check with each other team points, personal fouls, team fouls, timeouts, warnings, possession arrow, etc., and if there's a discrepancy, to inform the nearest official as soon as possible. With that discrepancy, both officials will do the best they can to discover the cause, and to "fix" any discrepancy, using the rules, definite knowledge, common sense, arithmetic, timekeeper, etc.

2) Near the end of the game, maybe during the third/fourth period intermission, or during any timeouts nearer to the end of the game, to tell both scorekeepers to be sure to inform either official if a team uses it's fifth time out (in regulation), or uses a time out in excess of five timeouts (in regulation).

3) When a team has used their fifth time out (in regulation) to be sure to inform the head coach that his team has "used up" all of their alloted timeouts.

4) Knowing that team has no timeouts remaining, when an official hears the request for a timeout from that bench, take an extra second, or so, to be sure that it is the head coach of that team that is, indeed, requesting that timeout, not a fan behind the bench, or an assistant coach.

That's the way it's done here in my little conner of Connecticut. Skip any of of those four steps, and we're part of the problem, but, if a head coach requests, and is granted, a sixth timeout, his team will be charged with a technical foul, no free passes, it wouldn't be fair to the other team, and, indeed, might put them at a disadvantage not intended by the rules.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

IOW, you have no interest in managing the game. You have no interest in communicating with the table or coaches. You have no interest in preventative officiating. You're just out there to blow your whistle.

That's not an acceptable mode of operation here.

Thanks.

Seems to me the opposite. You seem to have an interest in overmanaging the game and overcommunicating with the table and coaches. The rulebook doesn't tell you to update the coach on his timeouts except when he runs out. Now you've gone and communicated (improperly) with the coach something that turns out to be in error. And you have no "fair"way out of your conundrum.

I don't believe Mac is just out there to blow his whistle. From previous posts, he seems to know what he's talking about as well as anyone else here. You are railing on him for not doing something that the rulebook doesn't tell him to do. I think you're wrong.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Seems to me the opposite. You seem to have an interest in overmanaging the game and overcommunicating with the table and coaches. The rulebook doesn't tell you to update the coach on his timeouts except when he runs out. Now you've gone and communicated (improperly) with the coach something that turns out to be in error. And you have no "fair"way out of your conundrum.

I don't believe Mac is just out there to blow his whistle. From previous posts, he seems to know what he's talking about as well as anyone else here. You are railing on him for not doing something that the rulebook doesn't tell him to do. I think you're wrong.

Please show me where I've posted I update the coach on how many timeouts he has, other than when required.

I'll save you the trouble, I didn't post any such thing nor have I advocated such. I said, I keep up with the timeouts beginning in the fourth quarter. By doing so, hopefully I can avoid a situation like this.

In my opinion, ignoring what two 16 y/o's are doing at the scorer's table because "it keeps me out of trouble" is not the best way to manage a game. You're certainly welcome to disagree with my opinion. And if I offended Billy Mac, I apologize. Being tactful has never been my strong suit.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

In my opinion, ignoring what two 16 y/o's are doing at the scorer's table because "it keeps me out of trouble" is not the best way to manage a game. .

When was the last time you saw "two 16 y/o's" running books at a college game? (I believe that was the game in the OP)

In fact, I can't remember the last time anyone but an adult has done the Varsity books around these parts.

Having said that...an inexperienced adult, running the books, can really get you in trouble. (If you are not actively "managing" them...I'm with you there BBR)

We had one of those inexperienced adults the other night....

It was her FIRST time EVER keeping score. And this was for a Varsity game!
The clock operator was also inexperienced. Actually, this was a nightmare table crew.

Fouls were recorded wrong on the board...Score was recorded wrong on the board...TO's were not kept up to date on board...Disqualified player showed 4 fouls on board (player talked his coach into putting him back in the game because the board showed he only had 4 fouls)

...that is a whole different story...

MORAL OF THIS STORY:

Quiz the table crew, when you are signing the books, just to get a feel for how knowledgeable they are.

i.e.

* When do you start the shot clock after the made basket?
(Some start it when it is at the throw-in teams disposal...some start after ball goes through hoop...some start when ball touches player on court)

* When do you start the play clock? (on our CHOP)

* When do you activate the first horn after TO's or a disqualification?
(Most get this, 15 seconds before the end of TO,...but, many do not know to activate the horn 5 seconds into a disqualification) [I usually count to 5 after I tell the clock operator to start the clock for a disqualification...then instruct to activate 1st horn, if they look confused] I stress to them that for TO's and disq. activate horn with 15 seconds left...no matter what length TO or disq. is...here is where you have to let them know 20 seconds for disq. replacement.

* I even ask the book to let us know when we are in the bonus. (I stress to them we don't want a correctable error situation)

* I ask them to give us a nice visible 5 for a disqualification...and a horn.

* I will ask the table crew when it is too late for a substitute to check in during a TO.(after the 1st horn...a player can check in after 1st horn...just won't get in right away)

I like this time with the table crew...I become familiar with the table crew and their knowledge...and best of all...

it gives me something to do during the "worst 15 minutes of basketball"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

And if I offended BillyMac, I apologize.

No offense taken. No need to apologize. Hey. I've gone one on one with Jurassic Referee on this Forum, and lived to tell about it. After that, nothing on the Forum offends me. Dr. Jurassic Referee immunized me against "offense". Plus, I should have never posted that Sargent Schultz video, which I'm sure, many Forum members found to be offensive. But I won't apologize. If God didn't want me to post videos on the Forum, he would have never invented YouTube.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I only want the table to tell me when the team has been granted all of their timeouts, or have been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. I will only tell the coach when his team has been granted all of their timeouts, or when his team has been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. This keeps me out of trouble.

What you said: +10,000

video: +10,000


MTD, Sr.