Lost time out...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Basically, if the table makes a mistake and tells the coach he has one timeout left, he calls it, then they say he had none, you're in the clear because you weren't involved? So you think the appropriate thing to do in that sitch is assess the T since there's no blood on your hands? Is that what you're saying?

God invented assistant coaches to keep their mouths shut, to keep their butts on the bench, and to keep track of granted timeouts. Officials are not expected to know, and communicate, any more timeout information then is required by the rules. If the table communicates the wrong information to the coach, and then the coach requests, and is granted, an excess (illegal) time out, then I don't believe that we can give his team a pass, and that we must charge the team with a technical foul. Even if it's the visiting coach, he still has a scorekeeper at the bench to, hopefully, prevent this situation.

If the table forgot to inform me that the team had been granted their last timeout, with me, obviously, not communicating this to the coach, and then he requested, and was granted, another timeout, at which time the scorekeeper informed me that the coach requested, and was granted, an excess (illegal) timeout, then I would still charge a technical foul to the team. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't believe that invoking 2-3, or advantage/disadvantage is allowed, by rule here, although if an official chose to go this route, I would not point out the undercarriage of a bus to him.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

When I sit on the bench that's exactly what I do!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

God invented assistant coaches to keep their mouths shut, to keep their butts on the bench, and to keep track of granted timeouts. Officials are not expected to know, and communicate, any more timeout information then is required by the rules. If the table communicates the wrong information to the coach, and then the coach requests, and is granted, an excess (illegal) time out, then I don't believe that we can give his team a pass, and that we must charge the team with a technical foul. Even if it's the visiting coach, he still has a scorekeeper at the bench to, hopefully, prevent this situation.

If the table forgot to inform me that the team had been granted their last timeout, with me, obviously, not communicating this to the coach, and then he requested, and was granted, another timeout, at which time the scorekeeper informed me that the coach requested, and was granted, an excess (illegal) timeout, then I would still charge a technical foul to the team. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't believe that invoking 2-3, or advantage/disadvantage is allowed, by rule here, although if an official chose to go this route, I would not point out the undercarriage of a bus to him.

IOW, you have no interest in managing the game. You have no interest in communicating with the table or coaches. You have no interest in preventative officiating. You're just out there to blow your whistle.

That's not an acceptable mode of operation here.

Thanks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You have no interest in managing the game. You have no interest in communicating with the table or coaches. You have no interest in preventative officiating. You're just out there to blow your whistle.

In reference to timeouts, maybe. If a coach, for whatever reason, is misinformed regarding the number, if any, of his timeouts remaining, and if he requests, and is granted, a sixth time out in regulation, I won't charge the technical foul right away. I will get together with both scorekeepers, as well as my partner, to try to get the most definitive information possible, and maybe determine the cause of the mistaken communication. However, if it's his sixth timeout in regulation, I will charge the technical foul, to not do so would put the other team at a disadvantage, unless of course, you are also going to give the other team an "extra" timeout.

And what if that sixth timeout was requested, and granted, to avoid a ten second violation, a probable turnover, when the official's count was up to nine, with the ball still deep in the backcourt? Do you think that the opposing coach is going to be pleased with the other team getting "extra" timeout to avoid a violation, and probable turnover, without any penalty? I think not.

Or what if the "extra timeout is to avoid a situation where his player is trapped by two defenders, against a boundary corner, with a turnover, by a steal, or a five second violation, very probable? "Extra" timeout allowed? Again, I think not.

Rarely do additional wrongs make up for a previous wrong. Things just get "wronger" and much tougher to explain when your assigning commissioner calls later that night, or the next morning. One can rarely go wrong by following the rules, even after mistakes are made.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In reference to timeouts, maybe. If a coach, for whatever reason, is misinformed regarding the number, if any, of his timeouts remaining, and if he requests, and is granted, a sixth time out in regulation, I won't charge the technical foul right away. I will get together with both scorekeepers, as well as my partner, to try to get the most definitive information possible, and maybe determine the cause of the mistaken communication. However, if it's his sixth timeout in regulation, I will charge the technical foul, to not do so would put the other team at a disadvantage, unless of course, you are also going to give the other team an "extra" timeout.

And what if that sixth timeout was requested, and granted, to avoid a ten second violation, a probable turnover, when the official's count was up to nine, with the ball still deep in the backcourt? Do you think that the opposing coach is going to be pleased with the other team getting "extra" timeout to avoid a violation, and probable turnover, without any penalty? I think not.

Or what if the "extra timeout is to avoid a situation where his player is trapped by two defenders, against a boundary corner, with a turnover, by a steal, or a five second violation, very probable? "Extra" timeout allowed? Again, I think not.

Rarely do additional wrongs make up for a precious wrong. Things just get "wronger" and much tougher to explain when your assigning commissioner cal later that night, or the next morning. One can rarely go wrong by following the rule, even after mistakes are made.

You're talking about handling things when the cat is already out of the bag. I'm talking about becoming involved and preventing it from happening to begin with.

Sitting back and ignoring such situations until you get to blow your whistle is exactly what created this situation. You're trying to avoid the situation by ignoring it and taking no ownership of what is going on in your game.

"Well, if I don't know what's going on, I can just sit back, let it happen and then I get to blow my whistle."

Manage the game, manage the scorer's table and manage the players and coaches and you prevent such situations from happening.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Manage the game, manage the scorer's table and manage the players and coaches and you prevent such situations from happening.

Based on the OP my question would be what was there to manage? If the crew follows procedure and doesn't say anything to the head coach - since the crew was told the home team had one timeout remaining - there shouldn't be anything else to do at that point.

If that coach doesn't call a TO for the rest of the game, no harm done. If the table tells him he has a TO, he calls one then the scorers figure out he doesn't have one, managing the game means dealing with an excessive timeout.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Based on the OP my question would be what was there to manage? If the crew follows procedure and doesn't say anything to the head coach - since the crew was told the home team had one timeout remaining - there shouldn't be anything else to do at that point.

If the coach doesn't have any timeouts, then we would have informed him of that. If the table tells the coach he has one timeout remaining and then says he doesn't have any when he calls it, then we haven't managed the game. Ignoring the situation isn't managing it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the coach doesn't have any timeouts, then we would have informed him of that. If the table tells the coach he has one timeout remaining and then says he doesn't have any when he calls it, then we haven't managed the game. Ignoring the situation isn't managing it.

Are you saying you keep up with the number of timeouts as they are used?
(I don't)

Otherwise, the exchange between the coach and the table could happen without our knowledge. Then, the table could discover the mistake? and not tell anyone until the next timeout is called. What could we have done to prevent this?

Here's what I would do at this point:

Table: He doesn't have any timeouts.

Coach: They just told me I did have a timeout.

Me: Table, is this true?

Table: yes.......oops

Me: No T and no timeout. Play ball.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the coach doesn't have any timeouts, then we would have informed him of that. If the table tells the coach he has one timeout remaining and then says he doesn't have any when he calls it, then we haven't managed the game. Ignoring the situation isn't managing it.

JAR beat me to it but the table/coach conversation could have - and probably would have - happened without the crew's knowledge. If he and/or the scorers bring it to our attention of course we'll handle it. But if the table tells the crew one thing and the coach believes another and nothing is said, there's nothing for the crew to do.

As I said earlier, there are more backup systems in an NCAA game to prevent something like this from happening before it gets to the crew. Once it gets to us all those systems have failed and we deal with it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You're talking about handling things when the cat is already out of the bag. I'm talking about becoming involved and preventing it from happening to begin with.

Preventive Officiating Regarding Timeouts (Managing The Game With Something Other Then Blowing The Whistle):

1) As the referee, tell both scorekeepers, pregame, to check with each other team points, personal fouls, team fouls, timeouts, warnings, possession arrow, etc., and if there's a discrepancy, to inform the nearest official as soon as possible. With that discrepancy, both officials will do the best they can to discover the cause, and to "fix" any discrepancy, using the rules, definite knowledge, common sense, arithmetic, timekeeper, etc.

2) Near the end of the game, maybe during the third/fourth period intermission, or during any timeouts nearer to the end of the game, to tell both scorekeepers to be sure to inform either official if a team uses it's fifth time out (in regulation), or uses a time out in excess of five timeouts (in regulation).

3) When a team has used their fifth time out (in regulation) to be sure to inform the head coach that his team has "used up" all of their alloted timeouts.

4) Knowing that team has no timeouts remaining, when an official hears the request for a timeout from that bench, take an extra second, or so, to be sure that it is the head coach of that team that is, indeed, requesting that timeout, not a fan behind the bench, or an assistant coach.

That's the way it's done here in my little conner of Connecticut. Skip any of of those four steps, and we're part of the problem, but, if a head coach requests, and is granted, a sixth timeout, his team will be charged with a technical foul, no free passes, it wouldn't be fair to the other team, and, indeed, might put them at a disadvantage not intended by the rules.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

IOW, you have no interest in managing the game. You have no interest in communicating with the table or coaches. You have no interest in preventative officiating. You're just out there to blow your whistle.

That's not an acceptable mode of operation here.

Thanks.

Seems to me the opposite. You seem to have an interest in overmanaging the game and overcommunicating with the table and coaches. The rulebook doesn't tell you to update the coach on his timeouts except when he runs out. Now you've gone and communicated (improperly) with the coach something that turns out to be in error. And you have no "fair"way out of your conundrum.

I don't believe Mac is just out there to blow his whistle. From previous posts, he seems to know what he's talking about as well as anyone else here. You are railing on him for not doing something that the rulebook doesn't tell him to do. I think you're wrong.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Seems to me the opposite. You seem to have an interest in overmanaging the game and overcommunicating with the table and coaches. The rulebook doesn't tell you to update the coach on his timeouts except when he runs out. Now you've gone and communicated (improperly) with the coach something that turns out to be in error. And you have no "fair"way out of your conundrum.

I don't believe Mac is just out there to blow his whistle. From previous posts, he seems to know what he's talking about as well as anyone else here. You are railing on him for not doing something that the rulebook doesn't tell him to do. I think you're wrong.

Please show me where I've posted I update the coach on how many timeouts he has, other than when required.

I'll save you the trouble, I didn't post any such thing nor have I advocated such. I said, I keep up with the timeouts beginning in the fourth quarter. By doing so, hopefully I can avoid a situation like this.

In my opinion, ignoring what two 16 y/o's are doing at the scorer's table because "it keeps me out of trouble" is not the best way to manage a game. You're certainly welcome to disagree with my opinion. And if I offended Billy Mac, I apologize. Being tactful has never been my strong suit.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

In my opinion, ignoring what two 16 y/o's are doing at the scorer's table because "it keeps me out of trouble" is not the best way to manage a game. .

When was the last time you saw "two 16 y/o's" running books at a college game? (I believe that was the game in the OP)

In fact, I can't remember the last time anyone but an adult has done the Varsity books around these parts.

Having said that...an inexperienced adult, running the books, can really get you in trouble. (If you are not actively "managing" them...I'm with you there BBR)

We had one of those inexperienced adults the other night....

It was her FIRST time EVER keeping score. And this was for a Varsity game!
The clock operator was also inexperienced. Actually, this was a nightmare table crew.

Fouls were recorded wrong on the board...Score was recorded wrong on the board...TO's were not kept up to date on board...Disqualified player showed 4 fouls on board (player talked his coach into putting him back in the game because the board showed he only had 4 fouls)

...that is a whole different story...

MORAL OF THIS STORY:

Quiz the table crew, when you are signing the books, just to get a feel for how knowledgeable they are.

i.e.

* When do you start the shot clock after the made basket?
(Some start it when it is at the throw-in teams disposal...some start after ball goes through hoop...some start when ball touches player on court)

* When do you start the play clock? (on our CHOP)

* When do you activate the first horn after TO's or a disqualification?
(Most get this, 15 seconds before the end of TO,...but, many do not know to activate the horn 5 seconds into a disqualification) [I usually count to 5 after I tell the clock operator to start the clock for a disqualification...then instruct to activate 1st horn, if they look confused] I stress to them that for TO's and disq. activate horn with 15 seconds left...no matter what length TO or disq. is...here is where you have to let them know 20 seconds for disq. replacement.

* I even ask the book to let us know when we are in the bonus. (I stress to them we don't want a correctable error situation)

* I ask them to give us a nice visible 5 for a disqualification...and a horn.

* I will ask the table crew when it is too late for a substitute to check in during a TO.(after the 1st horn...a player can check in after 1st horn...just won't get in right away)

I like this time with the table crew...I become familiar with the table crew and their knowledge...and best of all...

it gives me something to do during the "worst 15 minutes of basketball"

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

When was the last time you saw "two 16 y/o's" running books at a college game? (I believe that was the game in the OP)

Wasn't referring to the OP. I was referring to Billy Mac's post, who I am under the impression only works HS. If I'm wrong about that, BM is welcome to correct me.

Either way, it wasn't meant to be taken that every single game has 16 y/o scorers. But for the record, many of them do here and I do everything I can to keep it from going down the crapper because of them.

[just another ref]

Tonight, varsity DH, there was a kid (not sure how old, my definition of "kid" is a lot broader than it used to be) keeping the official book. We had a timeout with about 2 or 3 minutes left in the girls game. I walked to the table and never said a word. He quickly volunteered. (pointing) "They have 2 left.....and they have 1." I said to just be sure and let us know if somebody has NONE. He assured me that he would.