Lost time out...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You have no interest in managing the game. You have no interest in communicating with the table or coaches. You have no interest in preventative officiating. You're just out there to blow your whistle.

In reference to timeouts, maybe. If a coach, for whatever reason, is misinformed regarding the number, if any, of his timeouts remaining, and if he requests, and is granted, a sixth time out in regulation, I won't charge the technical foul right away. I will get together with both scorekeepers, as well as my partner, to try to get the most definitive information possible, and maybe determine the cause of the mistaken communication. However, if it's his sixth timeout in regulation, I will charge the technical foul, to not do so would put the other team at a disadvantage, unless of course, you are also going to give the other team an "extra" timeout.

And what if that sixth timeout was requested, and granted, to avoid a ten second violation, a probable turnover, when the official's count was up to nine, with the ball still deep in the backcourt? Do you think that the opposing coach is going to be pleased with the other team getting "extra" timeout to avoid a violation, and probable turnover, without any penalty? I think not.

Or what if the "extra timeout is to avoid a situation where his player is trapped by two defenders, against a boundary corner, with a turnover, by a steal, or a five second violation, very probable? "Extra" timeout allowed? Again, I think not.

Rarely do additional wrongs make up for a previous wrong. Things just get "wronger" and much tougher to explain when your assigning commissioner calls later that night, or the next morning. One can rarely go wrong by following the rules, even after mistakes are made.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In reference to timeouts, maybe. If a coach, for whatever reason, is misinformed regarding the number, if any, of his timeouts remaining, and if he requests, and is granted, a sixth time out in regulation, I won't charge the technical foul right away. I will get together with both scorekeepers, as well as my partner, to try to get the most definitive information possible, and maybe determine the cause of the mistaken communication. However, if it's his sixth timeout in regulation, I will charge the technical foul, to not do so would put the other team at a disadvantage, unless of course, you are also going to give the other team an "extra" timeout.

And what if that sixth timeout was requested, and granted, to avoid a ten second violation, a probable turnover, when the official's count was up to nine, with the ball still deep in the backcourt? Do you think that the opposing coach is going to be pleased with the other team getting "extra" timeout to avoid a violation, and probable turnover, without any penalty? I think not.

Or what if the "extra timeout is to avoid a situation where his player is trapped by two defenders, against a boundary corner, with a turnover, by a steal, or a five second violation, very probable? "Extra" timeout allowed? Again, I think not.

Rarely do additional wrongs make up for a precious wrong. Things just get "wronger" and much tougher to explain when your assigning commissioner cal later that night, or the next morning. One can rarely go wrong by following the rule, even after mistakes are made.

You're talking about handling things when the cat is already out of the bag. I'm talking about becoming involved and preventing it from happening to begin with.

Sitting back and ignoring such situations until you get to blow your whistle is exactly what created this situation. You're trying to avoid the situation by ignoring it and taking no ownership of what is going on in your game.

"Well, if I don't know what's going on, I can just sit back, let it happen and then I get to blow my whistle."

Manage the game, manage the scorer's table and manage the players and coaches and you prevent such situations from happening.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Manage the game, manage the scorer's table and manage the players and coaches and you prevent such situations from happening.

Based on the OP my question would be what was there to manage? If the crew follows procedure and doesn't say anything to the head coach - since the crew was told the home team had one timeout remaining - there shouldn't be anything else to do at that point.

If that coach doesn't call a TO for the rest of the game, no harm done. If the table tells him he has a TO, he calls one then the scorers figure out he doesn't have one, managing the game means dealing with an excessive timeout.

[Forksref]

We had a similar situation on Friday night. Visiting team thinks they are out of timeouts. It's a close game near the end and he wants to make sure what he has. I check the home book: 2 TO's left. The visiting book agrees that they have 2 TO's left. We go with the home book. The home coach has no problem with it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You're talking about handling things when the cat is already out of the bag. I'm talking about becoming involved and preventing it from happening to begin with.

Preventive Officiating Regarding Timeouts (Managing The Game With Something Other Then Blowing The Whistle):

1) As the referee, tell both scorekeepers, pregame, to check with each other team points, personal fouls, team fouls, timeouts, warnings, possession arrow, etc., and if there's a discrepancy, to inform the nearest official as soon as possible. With that discrepancy, both officials will do the best they can to discover the cause, and to "fix" any discrepancy, using the rules, definite knowledge, common sense, arithmetic, timekeeper, etc.

2) Near the end of the game, maybe during the third/fourth period intermission, or during any timeouts nearer to the end of the game, to tell both scorekeepers to be sure to inform either official if a team uses it's fifth time out (in regulation), or uses a time out in excess of five timeouts (in regulation).

3) When a team has used their fifth time out (in regulation) to be sure to inform the head coach that his team has "used up" all of their alloted timeouts.

4) Knowing that team has no timeouts remaining, when an official hears the request for a timeout from that bench, take an extra second, or so, to be sure that it is the head coach of that team that is, indeed, requesting that timeout, not a fan behind the bench, or an assistant coach.

That's the way it's done here in my little conner of Connecticut. Skip any of of those four steps, and we're part of the problem, but, if a head coach requests, and is granted, a sixth timeout, his team will be charged with a technical foul, no free passes, it wouldn't be fair to the other team, and, indeed, might put them at a disadvantage not intended by the rules.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Based on the OP my question would be what was there to manage? If the crew follows procedure and doesn't say anything to the head coach - since the crew was told the home team had one timeout remaining - there shouldn't be anything else to do at that point.

If the coach doesn't have any timeouts, then we would have informed him of that. If the table tells the coach he has one timeout remaining and then says he doesn't have any when he calls it, then we haven't managed the game. Ignoring the situation isn't managing it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I only want the table to tell me when the team has been granted all of their timeouts, or have been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. I will only tell the coach when his team has been granted all of their timeouts, or when his team has been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. This keeps me out of trouble.

What you said: +10,000

video: +10,000


MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the coach doesn't have any timeouts, then we would have informed him of that. If the table tells the coach he has one timeout remaining and then says he doesn't have any when he calls it, then we haven't managed the game. Ignoring the situation isn't managing it.

Are you saying you keep up with the number of timeouts as they are used?
(I don't)

Otherwise, the exchange between the coach and the table could happen without our knowledge. Then, the table could discover the mistake? and not tell anyone until the next timeout is called. What could we have done to prevent this?

Here's what I would do at this point:

Table: He doesn't have any timeouts.

Coach: They just told me I did have a timeout.

Me: Table, is this true?

Table: yes.......oops

Me: No T and no timeout. Play ball.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are you saying you keep up with the number of timeouts as they are used?

From the beginning of the 4th quarter going forward, yes.

Even so, if the don't tell me that he's used his last one, he requests one, they tell me he doesn't have anymore but they've told him he does, then we're not going to have a T and we're not going to have a timeout. Let's play.

But the idea that you stand out in the middle of the floor and just ignore the possibility that something might be wrong because "This keeps me out of trouble," is a chicken$hit way of handling it IMO.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

wow that is one bad official scorer! was the AD of the host institution notified that he should probably start looking for a replacement official scorer? icall-your crew handled this perfectly IMHO

it could have gotten ugly. we notified our assignor and will let the league handle it. not sure there is anything to do, but we were able to avoid a potentially bad situation

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by jdmara

When there was a question about the number of TO's why wasn't the visiting book consulted to see if they match? Yes, the official book is the official book but why not compare them and practice a little preventative officiating?

-Josh

Both teams knew the TO situation, I thought I stated as much. That is why we had the discussion with both coaches. But in the end, the official book is where the correct information is supposed to be.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

From the beginning of the 4th quarter going forward, yes.

Even so, if the don't tell me that he's used his last one, he requests one, ]they tell me he doesn't have anymore but they've told him he does, then we're not going to have a T and we're not going to have a timeout. Let's play.

+1

But the idea that you stand out in the middle of the floor and just ignore the possibility that something might be wrong because "This keeps me out of trouble," is a chicken$hit way of handling it IMO.

Perhaps there are more delicate ways to put it, but it's hard to argue with this.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are you saying you keep up with the number of timeouts as they are used?
(I don't)

...

I try to. Wish I did a better job at it. Sometimes when I checking the book late in the 2nd half I will check to make sure each scorer has the same time-out count.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the coach doesn't have any timeouts, then we would have informed him of that. If the table tells the coach he has one timeout remaining and then says he doesn't have any when he calls it, then we haven't managed the game. Ignoring the situation isn't managing it.

JAR beat me to it but the table/coach conversation could have - and probably would have - happened without the crew's knowledge. If he and/or the scorers bring it to our attention of course we'll handle it. But if the table tells the crew one thing and the coach believes another and nothing is said, there's nothing for the crew to do.

As I said earlier, there are more backup systems in an NCAA game to prevent something like this from happening before it gets to the crew. Once it gets to us all those systems have failed and we deal with it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If a coach, for whatever reason, is misinformed regarding the number, if any, of his timeouts remaining, and if he requests, and is granted, a sixth timeout in regulation, I won't charge the technical foul right away. I will get together with both scorekeepers, as well as my partner, to try to get the most definitive information possible, and maybe determine the cause of the mistaken communication.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

But the idea that you stand out in the middle of the floor and just ignore the possibility that something might be wrong because "This keeps me out of trouble," is a chicken$hit way of handling it IMO.

It's pretty tough to stand in the middle of the floor and do what I stated in my quote above.