Possible CE, MN/MSU

JRutledge · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 05:38pm

That is a misapplication of the rules, not a correctable error per say. Now unless they noticed this in a timely matter it could be corrected under the CE rule, but this is not a typical CE situation because they were shooting when by rule it was a TC foul.

Peace

bob jenkins · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 06:48pm

"Awarding an unmerited FT" is a CE.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"Awarding an unmerited FT" is a CE.

It is not my point. They did not have a CE, they missapplied the rule. They should know it is a TC foul you never shoot FTs on and should know this was a TC foul even if the player had grabbed the ball. They were on offense.

Peace

just another ref · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not my point. They did not have a CE, they missapplied the rule. They should know it is a TC foul you never shoot FTs on and should know this was a TC foul even if the player had grabbed the ball. They were on offense.

Peace

They misapplied a rule, if you want to put it that way, which resulted in a correctable error. What is your point?

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref

They misapplied a rule, if you want to put it that way, which resulted in a correctable error. What is your point?

It did not result in anything. They play stood from all accounts. That is the point.

Peace

just another ref · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It did not result in anything. They play stood from all accounts. That is the point.

Peace

But it was still a correctable error. They just failed to correct it.

afsst · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not my point. They did not have a CE, they missapplied the rule. They should know it is a TC foul you never shoot FTs on and should know this was a TC foul even if the player had grabbed the ball. They were on offense.

Peace

I think you're missing the big picture here. Everyone acknowledges the officials incorrectly awarded free throws. The teaching point here is the Correctable Error...When and How this error can be corrected.

Hypothetically, what if Mich St makes the first free throw and misses the second with the subsequent Mich St foul? After the whistle for the foul, if the officials realized they incorrectly awarded the free throws, they would take the point off the board for the first free throw but count the subsequent Mich State foul after the miss (as it was not part of the free throw). Minnesota would shoot free throw(s) if in the bonus or take the ball OOB if not in the bonus. But since he missed the free throw, the officials were saved...

Case play 2.10.1.

Raymond · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 01, 2013, 10:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"Awarding an unmerited FT" is a CE.

So, is this another one of those CE situation where we blame a coach for not 'pointing it out' to us.

Rich · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is a misapplication of the rules, not a correctable error per say. Now unless they noticed this in a timely matter it could be corrected under the CE rule, but this is not a typical CE situation because they were shooting when by rule it was a TC foul.

Peace

Sorry to pile on, but awarding unmerited free throws as a result of a team control foul is a correctable error. Even if they didn't recognize it as a team control foul when the foul was called, they can still correct this within the window.

Doesn't surprise me when these are missed, BTW.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 10:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Sorry to pile on, but awarding unmerited free throws as a result of a team control foul is a correctable error. Even if they didn't recognize it as a team control foul when the foul was called, they can still correct this within the window.

Doesn't surprise me when these are missed, BTW.

And I think you guys are missing the point I am making. It is only a correctable error if they invoke that rule. It is a misapplication of the rules to even be in that situation. This is not like a guy that was sent to the line erroneously like awarding points he did not score or they gave a 3 points instead of a 2. This was simply a misapplication. Now if they caught it in time then they could correct the situation by that rule, but that is not what they did in the end. Heck you do not even need to invoke the CE rule at all if someone says, "Hey, this was a TC foul and we do not shoot these." They did not do anything but shoot FTs on a situation which clearly. I do not consider that invoking the CE rule, I consider that enforcing the rule properly. They did not come back later and then put the ball where they interrupted the play to correct the mistake.

This happen to me last post season where there was a loose ball foul called and I initially was going to send the fouled player to the line. Then my partner quickly came over and said, "They were in TC right?" The light bulb came on and we put the ball at the out of bounds spot. We did not use 2-10, it was making sure we applied the rule properly. That was not done here and 2-14 (I believe) was not used.

It might be semantics, but this is not a CE situation, this is a complete misapplication of a very basic rule. This clearly was in the TC window off a throw-in and the reason the NF rule was changed to clarify when a TC foul will be applied on a throw-in.

Peace

just another ref · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2012, 10:14pm

I think you're right.

We're missing the point you're making.

Forksref · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 01, 2013, 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think you're right.

We're missing the point you're making.

And Michigan State missed the FT and did not make the point or have a chance at the second point so the discussion point is made even though the FT point is not made but should not have been even attempted and that is the point that Rut was making and others were making for a different reason but the points are both good! Kumbaya

JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 01, 2013, 05:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forksref

And Michigan State missed the FT and did not make the point or have a chance at the second point so the discussion point is made even though the FT point is not made but should not have been even attempted and that is the point that Rut was making and others were making for a different reason but the points are both good! Kumbaya

Then the question I have now, how do you have a CE on a missed FT? You are not taking off points. You cannot give the ball back to Minnesota at the spot of the foul. So how is this really a CE situation at all?

Peace

just another ref · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 01, 2013, 05:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then the question I have now, how do you have a CE on a missed FT?

Whether the free throw is made or missed has no bearing on whether or not it was a correctable error.

just another ref · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 01, 2013, 05:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forksref

And Michigan State missed the FT and did not make the point or have a chance at the second point so the discussion point is made even though the FT point is not made but should not have been even attempted and that is the point that Rut was making and others were making for a different reason but the points are both good! Kumbaya

That's what makes it an error.