Hadn't Seen this Before

[OKREF]

Pretty simple to me. You get the opposing players out of the huddle. It is an unsporting act. If they or the coach don't want to respond then slap them with an unsporting technical foul.

Rule 10-4-1-D...Disrespectfully addressing, baiting, or taunting an opponent.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

...The huddle has nothing to do with the throw-in.

A coach isn't going to have that issue with me. First, we remain with th huddle to get them out and we use the RPP I posted above if they don't come out.

But again, an opponent entering a team's huddle has nothing to do with the RPP.

Restricting where a player on a team that has broken the huddle after the first horn and the RPP may very well be associated with one another. If you officiate in an area where coaches wouldn't associate the two good for you. In my experience, in several states, it would not be unthinkable for a coach to tie the two together and make comments about them.

By saying a coach isn't going to have that issue with you, are you saying that you follow the RPP to the letter, every time, in every game? To make such a claim would mean that 1) both teams come out of the huddle and are ready to play at the second horn or 2) you use the RPP if they don't...every time.

I agree with Camron and Rich, this is a grey area, but your comments make it seem like it is black and white. For me it is a grey area and coaches/players don't see parts of the game in isolation and react accordingly.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Pretty simple to me. You get the opposing players out of the huddle. It is an unsporting act. If they or the coach don't want to respond then slap them with an unsporting technical foul.

Rule 10-4-1-D...Disrespectfully addressing, baiting, or taunting an opponent.

Define out of the huddle. 2 feet away? 20 feet away? 5 feet away until the second horn sounds? Near their timeout area until the other team is out of the huddle? Does the throw in spot play a part in this (it could be near the team in the huddle)?

Grey area and possibly inconsistent application by officials. I would use communication and make some good attempts to get out of this situation without a technical foul.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Restricting where a player on a team that has broken the huddle after the first horn and the RPP may very well be associated with one another. If you officiate in an area where coaches wouldn't associate the two good for you. In my experience, in several states, it would not be unthinkable for a coach to tie the two together and make comments about them.

By saying a coach isn't going to have that issue with you, are you saying that you follow the RPP to the letter, every time, in every game? To make such a claim would mean that 1) both teams come out of the huddle and are ready to play at the second horn or 2) you use the RPP if they don't...every time.

I agree with Camron and Rich, this is a grey area, but your comments make it seem like it is black and white. For me it is a grey area and coaches/players don't see parts of the game in isolation and react accordingly.

I know I'm not responding to what I posted, but what the heck...I'm trying to avoid a paper I'm writing for my day job that's boring me silly, so here goes:

I have said in the past that I'm not exactly pushy when it comes to resuming play after a timeout. As long as the team is breaking the huddle at the second horn and moving back towards the court, I'm not going to do anything but wait and restart the game. If a team delays more than that, I'm likely going to go to the coach and tell him I don't want to put the ball on the floor, please get them out quicker or I'll have to do that. Then I'll do it....when the team's on offense.

I see so much more time wasted with foul reporting, free throw administration, and with other game situations that have nothing to do with the RPP, that I'm not terribly bothered by this. I think I put the ball down once or twice last season in about 60 games and haven't done so at all this season -- and no opposing coach has said anything. I recognize that it isn't that way in other parts of the country and if the coaches are used to such a procedure (like apparent BktBallRef's area), then everyone sing from the same hymn book. But I'd rather work with the coaches as best as I can before I have to resort to measures that will guarantee to annoy them, like putting the ball on the floor is likely to do.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Define out of the huddle. 2 feet away? 20 feet away? 5 feet away until the second horn sounds? Near their timeout area until the other team is out of the huddle? Does the throw in spot play a part in this (it could be near the team in the huddle)?

Grey area and possibly inconsistent application by officials. I would use communication and make some good attempts to get out of this situation without a technical foul.

I would say that I am going to keep them out of the opposing teams time out area until the 2nd horn, or possibly the 1st horn. I haven't really ever thought of this as it has never happened to me. I agree with Rich, I am not setting the ball down and putting the ball in play as soon as the second horn sounds. I would certainly allow each time to get on the floor and positioned in this situation.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Rich

I know I'm not responding to what I posted, but what the heck...I'm trying to avoid a paper I'm writing for my day job that's boring me silly, so here goes:

I have said in the past that I'm not exactly pushy when it comes to resuming play after a timeout. As long as the team is breaking the huddle at the second horn and moving back towards the court, I'm not going to do anything but wait and restart the game. If a team delays more than that, I'm likely going to go to the coach and tell him I don't want to put the ball on the floor, please get them out quicker or I'll have to do that. Then I'll do it....when the team's on offense.

I see so much more time wasted with foul reporting, free throw administration, and with other game situations that have nothing to do with the RPP, that I'm not terribly bothered by this. I think I put the ball down once or twice last season in about 60 games and haven't done so at all this season -- and no opposing coach has said anything. I recognize that it isn't that way in other parts of the country and if the coaches are used to such a procedure (like apparent BktBallRef's area), then everyone sing from the same hymn book. But I'd rather work with the coaches as best as I can before I have to resort to measures that will guarantee to annoy them, like putting the ball on the floor is likely to do.

I agree Rich...with everything you said.

Originally Posted by OKREF

I would say that I am going to keep them out of the opposing teams time out area until the 2nd horn, or possibly the 1st horn. I haven't really ever thought of this as it has never happened to me. I agree with Rich, I am not setting the ball down and putting the ball in play as soon as the second horn sounds. I would certainly allow each time to get on the floor and positioned in this situation.

I would say this grey area isn't so simple when the distance and time to "keep them out of the huddle" isn't clearly defined. Are you sure this is as simple as your previous post suggests? I think this is where some soft skills come into play. Setting the ball down is close to a last resort for me, but I think a T for the other team being in the huddle would be close to a last resort for me too.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Restricting where a player on a team that has broken the huddle after the first horn and the RPP may very well be associated with one another.

Not sure why you can't grasp this but the problem in the OP wasn't that a player was restricted from going somewhere on the floor. The problem was that the player entered another team's huddle. I don't care whether a horn has blown or not, that's unsporting.

By saying a coach isn't going to have that issue with you, are you saying that you follow the RPP to the letter, every time, in every game? To make such a claim would mean that 1) both teams come out of the huddle and are ready to play at the second horn or 2) you use the RPP if they don't...every time.

I'm saying that I have NEVER had a problem in this situation in the past. And since past performance is a predictor of future behavior, I don't anticipate having an issue with this in the future.

I agree with Camron and Rich, this is a grey area, but your comments make it seem like it is black and white. For me it is a grey area and coaches/players don't see parts of the game in isolation and react accordingly.

A player entering the opposing team's huddle is black and white for me. If it's grey for you, that's just wonderful. I'm not anywhere near as concerned about how you will react as you seem to be about me.

And for the final time...

A player entering an opposing team's huddle during a timeout is a TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY different issue than a team breaking their huddle after the second horn. One has nothing to do with the other.

I'm done.

[tomegun]

Well, before I'm done I would like to say how happy I am that times have changed. In the past, you would have your friends on your side and then they would close the thread as soon as you have your final say. The times have changed for real.

I have never had this problem either so I guess my past performance is a predictor of future behavior too. In my circle of officiating, we often toss around "what ifs" and go down that path of thinking. I guess you either don't do that or abruptly say that won't happen to you or chronological events aren't related...even though they happen in order.

You didn't answer my question about if teams break the huddle for you all the time after the first horn and/or if you use the RPP all the time if they aren't ready to play all the time after the second horn. I would bet a large sum of money neither happens so you operate in a grey area too.

I am not concerned about how you will react because we are different officials with different styles. From what I know (from your cyber friends) your style has been successful for you and I know my style has been successful for me. I have no problem stating that, but for some reason you think that your way is superior.

Saying things like "...for the final time..." indicates you think your word is final. If you think a coach will not comment on events that possibly happen one right after the other you have worked in ideal situations. I haven't lived such a charmed officiating life and I can easily see how coaches could possibly connect those dots regardless of how you or I may think they are connected.

I don't think I objected about someone entering the huddle. If I did, let me retract that part of the conversation. However, if I am the official who is on that side of the court, players aren't going to "enter the huddle". My preventive officiating will keep them from committing the unsporting act that you are ready to T up. Maybe that is why I'm not harping on this so much...it wouldn't happen on my watch unless the players push me to the side. At that point, we have a totally different problem.

You have a good evening ringing in the New Year Tony...and I mean that for real.