Hadn't Seen this Before

[tomegun]

So there are people saying they would give a T to team B? Would you call this T on one player specifically or the head coach?

Playing devil's advocate: I'm the head coach of team B and I accept telling my players to move or even a technical foul. Following the next timeout, what would you do if my team is ready to play and team A isn't out of their huddle and ready at the second horn? If your reply isn't to immediately give them a warning or T (if they already had a delay of game warning), how much are you willing to listen to me raise a stink?

I wouldn't give a T for this, but as soon as I read that some officials would tell the players to get away it made me think about what could happen the next time if A isn't ready at the second horn.

[rekent]

To me the point wasn't so much the ready to play aspect, but the fact that team B was intentionally attempting to listen in on team A's huddle which could very quickly incite a confrontation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So there are people saying they would give a T to team B? Would you call this T on one player specifically or the head coach?

Playing devil's advocate: I'm the head coach of team B and I accept telling my players to move or even a technical foul. Following the next timeout, what would you do if my team is ready to play and team A isn't out of their huddle and ready at the second horn? If your reply isn't to immediately give them a warning or T (if they already had a delay of game warning), how much are you willing to listen to me raise a stink?

I wouldn't give a T for this, but as soon as I read that some officials would tell the players to get away it made me think about what could happen the next time if A isn't ready at the second horn.

Technically, the rulewise way to handle your what-if is to put the ball in play, not give a warning or a T. Asking if they would do that would probably be the right hypothetical.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Technically, the rulewise way to handle your what-if is to put the ball in play, not give a warning or a T. Asking if they would do that would probably be the right hypothetical.

OK, would you do that...especially if the team B coach is yelling, "Come on, put the ball down, we are ready, the second horn sounded already"?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK, would you do that...especially if the team B coach is yelling, "Come on, put the ball down, we are ready, the second horn sounded already"?

If they're yelling for it, not likely, but I wouldn't say never.

I still haven't got an answer to my question (not specifically asked of anyone) about WHEN they are allowed to be anywhere on the court if they are expected to be in position ready to play by the 2nd horn. They can't magically teleport from their bench area to the other end of the court by the other team if they can't go there before the 2nd horn. So, when can they go there. (I note again that I'm not saying they should be allowed in the other team's huddle area, just when is the other team's space no longer their space).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If they're yelling for it, not likely, but I wouldn't say never.

I still haven't got an answer to my question (not specifically asked of anyone) about WHEN they are allowed to be anywhere on the court if they are expected to be in position ready to play by the 2nd horn.

And I don't think you'll get an answer -- it's not specifically covered. So, we need to officiate and decide if B is "listening in too soon" or if A is "taking too long on the TO" (and maybe I have the teams backwards) and address (which doesn't necessarily mean a T) the behavior.

[asdf]

I don't understand why we're getting hung up on "where are the players allowed to be"?

I think all of us at one point have stepped between a couple of players during a dead ball and said, "walk away!" Are they not "allowed" to be at that specific spot on the floor?

There's only one reason for a player(s) to be in or at an opponent's huddle, and I guarantee you it's not for strategic purposes.

This is purely game management and that's not explained in detail in any book or manual. It's on us.....

Get them out of there. If they fail to heed, nail 'em.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So there are people saying they would give a T to team B? Would you call this T on one player specifically or the head coach?

That's simple. The T is on the first player to enter the opposing team's huddle.

Playing devil's advocate: I'm the head coach of team B and I accept telling my players to move or even a technical foul. Following the next timeout, what would you do if my team is ready to play and team A isn't out of their huddle and ready at the second horn? If your reply isn't to immediately give them a warning or T (if they already had a delay of game warning), how much are you willing to listen to me raise a stink?

First, one situation has nothing to do with the other.

But this answer is simple as well. If a team isn't ready at the second horn, you go with the resuming play procedure. Whistle, count 2 seconds, whistle and put the ball on the floor.

The rules don't allow a warning to be issued in this situation.

Whether Team A delays in returning to the floor or not, Team B has no right to enter their huddle.

And if you raise a stink, I can handle you, too.

I wouldn't give a T for this, but as soon as I read that some officials would tell the players to get away it made me think about what could happen the next time if A isn't ready at the second horn.

Again, one has nothing to do with the other.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's simple. The T is on the first player to enter the opposing team's huddle.



First, one situation has nothing to do with the other.

But this answer is simple as well. If a team isn't ready at the second horn, you go with the resuming play procedure. Whistle, count 2 seconds, whistle and put the ball on the floor.

The rules don't allow a warning to be issued in this situation.

Whether Team A delays in returning to the floor or not, Team B has no right to enter their huddle.

And if you raise a stink, I can handle you, too.



Again, one has nothing to do with the other.

I'm not asking this to be smart, but have you had this happen before? I haven't had someone "go into the huddle" of the other team, but it would be an interesting situation. I just don't think I would give a T for this, even after this thread.

I think one does have something to do with the other. One team breaks the huddle after the first horn and one doesn't. If an official dictates where players can and cannot go while the other team is still in the huddle I think it is the right thing to do to end the timeout appropriately.

A coach could say a variation of the paragraph above. It could start as a calm remark/question from a coach all the way to the coach yelling to put the ball on the floor. I am wondering if someone would go as far as giving a coach a T for unsportingly asking for the official to do what the official is supposed to do.

I had a college game on Saturday and we talked about something similar to this in pregame. Some things just will not get done until you see guys doing it on TV...and that will probably not happen.

Camron, I will answer your question. After considering this situation, I think I would position myself between the players and the huddle and that is about as far as I would go after the first horn. That could mean the players are physically 4 or 5 feet away. I'm not sure how unsporting it would be to be close to the huddle since I would actively be interrupting the coach anyway to get them out of the huddle.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

...Camron, I will answer your question. After considering this situation, I think I would position myself between the players and the huddle and that is about as far as I would go after the first horn. That could mean the players are physically 4 or 5 feet away. I'm not sure how unsporting it would be to be close to the huddle since I would actively be interrupting the coach anyway to get them out of the huddle.

Yep, after the 1st horn an official should be by the huddle anyway reminding them to come out on the 2nd horn. I don't see an opposing player ignoring my presense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yep, after the 1st horn an official should be by the huddle anyway reminding them to come out on the 2nd horn. I don't see an opposing player ignoring my presense.

Our state wants us near that huddle to get them out and from what I understand this was not a NF mandate. That might be the issue for many. This is a non-issue from the standpoint of being near the huddle when this likely happens.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And I don't think you'll get an answer -- it's not specifically covered. So, we need to officiate and decide if B is "listening in too soon" or if A is "taking too long on the TO" (and maybe I have the teams backwards) and address (which doesn't necessarily mean a T) the behavior.

Thank you. That is my point exactly. No matter how anyone says they would handle it or how others should handle it, they're treading in grey area where there is no direct rule support.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So there are people saying they would give a T to team B? Would you call this T on one player specifically or the head coach?

This is related to a situation regarding bench personnel, but the principle seems the same to me.

10.4.4 B In a situation where similar multiple infractions occur at the same time, it is not the intent of the rules to penalize each individual infraction as a separate technical foul. One technical foul is charged to team A........

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I'm not asking this to be smart, but have you had this happen before? I haven't had someone "go into the huddle" of the other team, but it would be an interesting situation. I just don't think I would give a T for this, even after this thread.

No. I have had to deal with an opposing player standing by a player who were in discussion with their coach during a FT and it got ugly. Obviously, players can go anywhere on the floor during a FT, with the exception of restricted FT areas and that's what I had to communicate to the coach.

Based on that experience, I'm not going to allow a player to enter another team's TO huddle. We remain near the huddle after the 1st horn until they break or until just before the second horn sounds. But if a player did violate the huddle, I have no problem making the call.

I think one does have something to do with the other. One team breaks the huddle after the first horn and one doesn't. If an official dictates where players can and cannot go while the other team is still in the huddle I think it is the right thing to do to end the timeout appropriately.

A player can never go in an opposing team's timeout huddle. The huddle has nothing to do with the throw-in.

A coach could say a variation of the paragraph above. It could start as a calm remark/question from a coach all the way to the coach yelling to put the ball on the floor. I am wondering if someone would go as far as giving a coach a T for unsportingly asking for the official to do what the official is supposed to do.

A coach isn't going to have that issue with me. First, we remain with th huddle to get them out and we use the RPP I posted above if they don't come out.

But again, an opponent entering a team's huddle has nothing to do with the RPP.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Thank you. That is my point exactly. No matter how anyone says they would handle it or how others should handle it, they're treading in grey area where there is no direct rule support.

Treading in grey areas is why they pay us the big bucks. Game management and good judgment aren't written in a rule book.