Flagrant T v. T

[rekent]

Until now, I have not been permitted to issue flagrant whacks. That changes this year, but I can not really find a good explanation of what rises to flagrant, with the exception of fights.

I know the differences administratively, but can any of you expert types give me sort of a practical definition of flagrant tech worthy conduct?

Thanks for all the help, you people are invaluable.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to you all!

[Adam]

???

My first question is, what do you mean "permitted?"

I've called one flagrant T that wasn't fighting; but it was on a player who had already been DQd for fighting. He decided the home crowd needed to get a good look at his middle finger. That would have been a flagrant T at any point in the game.

[rekent]

What I mean is the other day on here someone mentioned they would have considered a flagrant T when a player or coach directed many loud f-words at them.

That has not even been an option for me until now, so I am wondering what general T scenarios people more experienced would say are worthy of considering an upgrade to flagrant.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Adam

My first question is, what do you mean "permitted?"

Exactly. Rekent, you were not allowed to toss somebody?

[maven]

Originally Posted by rekent

What I mean is the other day on here someone mentioned they would have considered a flagrant T when a player or coach directed many loud f-words at them.

That has not even been an option for me until now, so I am wondering what general T scenarios people more experienced would say are worthy of considering an upgrade to flagrant.

Why not start with the definition? 2-19-4:

"... If [the flagrant foul is] technical, it
involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or
persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rekent

What I mean is the other day on here someone mentioned they would have considered a flagrant T when a player or coach directed many loud f-words at them.

That has not even been an option for me until now, so I am wondering what general T scenarios people more experienced would say are worthy of considering an upgrade to flagrant.

I do understand the general question, but I am curious enough to ask further. Why wasn't it an option? Did you not know it was an option, or is there some sort of association rule that trumps the NFHS rules for you and says newer officials are not allowed to call a flagrant technical?

[rekent]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Exactly. Rekent, you were not allowed to toss somebody?

We could toss on two techs, but had to adhere absolutely to the same-ref-doesn't-give-2-T's-to-same-player-and-toss mentality, no matter what (although many were too hesitant to ring a player up). There was no tossing on 1 unless it was a fight.

Originally Posted by maven

Why not start with the definition? 2-19-4:

"... If [the flagrant foul is] technical, it
involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or
persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct."

That much I know, but I am wondering more about practical applications in the eyes of people with more years since it is so very subjective.

Originally Posted by Adam

I do understand the general question, but I am curious enough to ask further. Why wasn't it an option? Did you not know it was an option, or is there some sort of association rule that trumps the NFHS rules for you and says newer officials are not allowed to call a flagrant technical?

I began, and have been, in college intramural ball for the past 3 years at a school that did not allow flagrant T's outside of fights. I am at a new school beginning my 4th year, and they allow them, although offer no description or guidelines, and actually encourage them because they are cracking down on behavior like when the NBA first initiated their respect of the game initiative. I also plan to begin association ball in the fall of 2013 so I am wanting to make sure I fill in all the gaps that intramural ball had that association will not.

[Raymond]

Being called a mutha f'er rises to the level of flagrant. Racial slurs could be considered flagrant.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by rekent

I began, and have been, in college intramural ball ....

Say no more. Been there, and officiating your peers -- especially at that age -- is as it's tough as it gets. Looking back, I can I think of a time or two that I should have tossed someone, when I didn't. Familiarity indeed does breed contempt.

Personal comments toward you are a T. Profanity is a T. Personal comments toward you with profanity are flagrant. And, as BNR said, anything racial/sexual/etc., is flagrant.

[Stat-Man]

If you have the NFHS Casebook, review Case 10.4.1 Situation F for an example where a Flagrant T might be an option.

[APG]

Originally Posted by rekent

We could toss on two techs, but had to adhere absolutely to the same-ref-doesn't-give-2-T's-to-same-player-and-toss mentality, no matter what (although many were too hesitant to ring a player up). There was no tossing on 1 unless it was a fight.

Interesting... I got my start doing intramurals as well and handed out technical fouls with no regard for human life. Had no qualms about tossing people myself because I knew my partners either didn't care or didn't have it in them to do it

[just another ref]

Yes, this is interesting. I find that many rec leagues bend the other way and are quick to issue flagrants, even if they don't call them that and probably sometimes don't even know the term.

"You! Get out!"

[rekent]

Originally Posted by APG

Interesting... I got my start doing intramurals as well and handed out technical fouls with no regard for human life. Had no qualms about tossing people myself because I knew my partners either didn't care or didn't have it in them to do it

Oh I definitely was not shy with the technicals, but they made sure they were warranted. They were just religious about same ref not giving 2. It was so bad though, sometime a player would say something directly to one of my partners, less than a foot away, and the partner would look at me to call the T. I gave it a few seconds and when the whistle never came near their lips I whacked the guy myself...

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yes, this is interesting. I find that many rec leagues bend the other way and are quick to issue flagrants, even if they don't call them that and probably sometimes don't even know the term.

"You! Get out!"

Favorite post ever.

[stiffler3492]

I also got my start in intramurals in college. Great time, some partners better than others, eventually got to work in Assembly Hall (Indiana).

Anyways. There were nights, working at least two games, where I'd have four or more tech's. I honestly didn't care if a player swore because he missed a shot or made a bad pass or whatever, but the minute he swore at us, or at his opponent, bang.

Officiating peers is tough, no doubt. Those games can get out of hand if you don't have the cajones to take care of business.