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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:42am
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"Hand checks are NON shooting fouls!"

I enjoy "collecting" myths. This latest one came courtesy a middle school fan/parent today, right after I reported a hand-check foul to the table (which is opposite the stands in this little gym). It made me grin, as I can't say I've heard that one before, nor can I figure how someone would draw THAT conclusion.

I wonder if it came from the previous game's coach who wanted an "over the back" call in the first of the doubleheader.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:39am
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FWIW- I've never called a hand check on a shooting foul.

At that point it becomes a push for me.

Obviously not the rule but I can easily see how a fan or even a coach would think this way.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:44am
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During a foul, when I was table-side, I had a senior coach tell me last night, "C'mon ref, you gotta call those moving screens. They gotta be "set."

I briefly told him about moving screens, contact and not having to be "set."

And he turns to his coaches and tells them, well then we just need to teach our players they don't have to be set and it's ok to move....... Like I'm wrong and he's gonna show me later on when someone else calls it on his player......
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:12am
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
I enjoy "collecting" myths. This latest one came courtesy a middle school fan/parent today, right after I reported a hand-check foul to the table (which is opposite the stands in this little gym). It made me grin, as I can't say I've heard that one before, nor can I figure how someone would draw THAT conclusion.

I wonder if it came from the previous game's coach who wanted an "over the back" call in the first of the doubleheader.
No offense... but honestly I'm trying to envision a hand-check shooting foul and cannot do it. It's not really a hand-check anymore if he's shooting.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:30am
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I was thinking of bonus free throws.

But, it's possible to have a hand check occur as the shooter gathers the ball. Not common, but there's nothing that prevents the call. I'd normally go with pushing, but still....
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:54am
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Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
During a foul, when I was table-side, I had a senior coach tell me last night, "C'mon ref, you gotta call those moving screens. They gotta be "set."

I briefly told him about moving screens, contact and not having to be "set."...
Too much convo, IMO. I think it's best not to hold rules clinics during games. He didn't ask a question so a simple "We're watching coach" is the most he would get from me.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:03am
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Too much convo, IMO. I think it's best not to hold rules clinics during games. He didn't ask a question so a simple "We're watching coach" is the most he would get from me.
I understand your point. The conversation was brief before I moved away.

This yr I'm trying to work on better comms with coaches - i.e., not be afraid to engage a coach, listen, or answer a question.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:10am
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The more I think about this, the more I wonder if your parent wasn't right...

A hand-check is a violation in which a defender uses a hand to impede a player's progress.

Seems to me that if you do this during a shot (or even as it's being gathered to shoot), you're not really impeding progress as much as displacing a shooter (i.e. pushing). So if you're calling a hand-check, then you're calling a foul that occurred prior to the shot rather than during it.

Probably an exceedingly small nit to pick ... but honestly, I can see the parent's beef, and I'd call it a push if it happens during a shot going forward.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:49am
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I don't think I've ever verbalized a "hand-check" on a shooting foul.

And I don't see myself changing that.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:02am
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I call a push on shooting situations where it would be a hand checking otherwise. Never felt comfortable to call it a hand checking if the player has the ability to attempt a shot.

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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:34am
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
A hand-check is a violation in which a defender uses a hand to impede a player's progress.

Seems to me that if you do this during a shot (or even as it's being gathered to shoot), you're not really impeding progress as much as displacing a shooter (i.e. pushing). So if you're calling a hand-check, then you're calling a foul that occurred prior to the shot rather than during it.

Probably an exceedingly small nit to pick ... but honestly, I can see the parent's beef, and I'd call it a push if it happens during a shot going forward.
Actually, a hand check is a foul, not a violation. Beyond that, you bring an interesting analysis.

However, how can it pushing if the arms/hands never move forward? Pushing requires motion, generally from the arms or forearms (and sometimes the body, as in displacement). If the upright hands alone create the advantageous contact, there's your foul. If he's in the act of shooting, so be it.

So, pushing is out. Blocking? Maybe. Holding? No grasping in this case. Illegal contact? That could work, but I found it to be too vague here. If you want the kids to defend with their feet, and not their hands, wouldn't "hand check" make that point all the more clear?
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:56am
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Agree with other posters in that hand-checks occur on dribblers. Would call a push or a hold based on the nature of the foul. Sometimes the fans do have useful observations, but I would not make a habit of listening to what they say as it pertains to a critique of your game. In this case, I think they offered a useful nugget.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:04pm
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Originally Posted by Tio View Post
Agree with other posters in that hand-checks occur on dribblers. Would call a push or a hold based on the nature of the foul. Sometimes the fans do have useful observations, but I would not make a habit of listening to what they say as it pertains to a critique of your game. In this case, I think they offered a useful nugget.
A dead clock is right twice a day, who cares what they said. They probably heard this from an official and decided to make it known what they heard. I would not put too much stock in anything a fan says. Certainly not when I hear things like, "He must give him a place to land" or "That is ticky-tack" when a player grabs a player's arm trying to get the ball and holds the player off from getting to the ball.

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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:19pm
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A dead clock is right twice a day, who cares what they said. They probably heard this from an official and decided to make it known what they heard. I would not put too much stock in anything a fan says. Certainly not when I hear things like, "He must give him a place to land" or "That is ticky-tack" when a player grabs a player's arm trying to get the ball and holds the player off from getting to the ball.

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You forgot "3 seconds." This has to be the favorite call of the unknowledgeable fan.
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Old Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:06pm
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You forgot "3 seconds." This has to be the favorite call of the unknowledgeable fan.
Last night i had the classic "3 seconds ref, the shot never hit the rim!"
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