Correctable Error appeal/Stop play during a live ball?

[BayStateRef]

A1 takes a shot from beyond the 3-point line that goes in. Neither official indicates it is a 3-point basket.

As B is starting a fast break after retrieving the ball, Team A coach goes to the table to ask for a time out for a correctable error under Rule 5-8-4.

Is the timer supposed to wait for a dead ball or team control by Team A to sound the horn...or must the timer sound the horn immediately...even if it is during the fast break? And as the official, must you recognize the horn immediately and blow the whistle? If Team B scores and the ball is inbounded, it is too late to correct the error, since that would be the second live ball following the error.

Case book plays for 5.8.4 seem to suggest the timer should sound the horn immediately and the official should stop play with a whistle.

[bob jenkins]

I don't remember any case making such a claim (but I don't have the books handy, and I've been wrong before).

Should wait for a dead ball or the ball in control of the team.

[OKREF]

Table shouldn't blow the horn. If a coach thinks he has a correctable error, he needs to call a time out, or hope there is a dead ball to discuss it.

[ToolinFool]

I believe that counting a goal as a two points in error is a "Bookkeeping mistake" and therefore can be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Table shouldn't blow the horn. If a coach thinks he has a correctable error, he needs to call a time out, or hope there is a dead ball to discuss it.

That is not what the rule requires. The rule very clearly says the coach should approach the table (about the only time he may do so) and ask the scorer to sound the horn.

5-8:
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:

Article 4. Responds to the scorer's signal to grant a coach's request that a correctable error.... be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be presented at the scorer's table where a coach of each team may be present.

[JugglingReferee]

Regarding scoring a basket incorrectly as a 2 or incorrectly as a 3, I believe it is fixable until the score is approved at the end of the game. (My books aren't with me at the moment, so I cannot quote a rule or case.)

And further to that, the time frame you mentioned, "second live ball following the error" applies to cases specifically listed, none of which are your situation.

My suggestion is to fix the score as soon as you can, but preferable during a dead ball. If not, then while in backcourt possession of the team whose score will be affected. If it's late late in the game (perhaps < 1:00 or 2:00), fix it right away no matter who has team control.

The timekeeper should not blow the horn, imho.

[Loudwhistle2]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

A1 takes a shot from beyond the 3-point line that goes in. Neither official indicates it is a 3-point basket.

As B is starting a fast break after retrieving the ball, Team A coach goes to the table to ask for a time out for a correctable error under Rule 5-8-4.

Is the timer supposed to wait for a dead ball or team control by Team A to sound the horn...or must the timer sound the horn immediately...even if it is during the fast break? And as the official, must you recognize the horn immediately and blow the whistle? If Team B scores and the ball is inbounded, it is too late to correct the error, since that would be the second live ball following the error.

Case book plays for 5.8.4 seem to suggest the timer should sound the horn immediately and the official should stop play with a whistle.

I have corrected this error anytime during the game. ( 2 pt vs 3pt) If it falls into the correctable error category then we've been messing this up for years.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by ToolinFool

I believe that counting a goal as a two points in error is a "Bookkeeping mistake" and therefore can be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score.

It is not a scorer's error. See Case Play 2.10.1 Situation K.

The officials made the mistake by not signaling a 3-point shot. The scorer put 2 points in the book, which is not a scorer's mistake.

The officials blew it....but that's another story. The question is, by rule, may the coach have the timer sound the horn during a live ball in possession of the other team.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

That is not what the rule requires. The rule very clearly says the coach should approach the table (about the only time he may do so) and ask the scorer to sound the horn.

5-8:
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:

Article 4. Responds to the scorer's signal to grant a coach's request that a correctable error.... be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be presented at the scorer's table where a coach of each team may be present.

2-11-3

The scorer shall: Signal the officials by using the game horn or a sounding device unlike that used by the referee and umpires. This may be used immediately if, or as soon as, the ball is dead or is in control of the offending team.

I should have said they don't need to blow the horn during a fast break. As soon as the ball is dead blow it and get it corrected.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Regarding scoring a basket incorrectly as a 2 or incorrectly as a 3, I believe it is fixable until the score is approved at the end of the game. (My books aren't with me at the moment, so I cannot quote a rule or case.)

And further to that, the time frame you mentioned, "second live ball following the error" applies to cases specifically listed, none of which are your situation.

My suggestion is to fix the score as soon as you can, but preferable during a dead ball. If not, then while in backcourt possession of the team whose score will be affected. If it's late late in the game (perhaps < 1:00 or 2:00), fix it right away no matter who has team control.

The timekeeper should not blow the horn, imho.

Totally wrong. See Case Play 2.10.1 Situation K...which is exactly this play. It is a correctable error and must be fixed before the second live ball.

See also Situation L...which is essentially the same play...but explains what happens if the officials did not see if A1 was beyond the 3-point line.

I see a lot of folks wanting to do "equity" by getting it right at any time...but this is a specific play covered by rule.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Regarding scoring a basket incorrectly as a 2 or incorrectly as a 3, I believe it is fixable until the score is approved at the end of the game.

Depends on what happened.

If the official correctly signals 3 (or correctly does not signal) and the book records 2 (or 3), that's a bookkeeping error that can be corrected anytime (during the game).

If the official incorrectly signals 3 (or incorrectly fails to signal 3) and the book records what the official signalled, then it's a correctable error.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by OKREF

2-11-3

The scorer shall: Signal the officials by using the game horn or a sounding device unlike that used by the referee and umpires. This may be used immediately if, or as soon as, the ball is dead or is in control of the offending team.

I should have said they don't need to blow the horn during a fast break. As soon as the ball is dead blow it and get it corrected.

Thanks. That's a good citation.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Depends on what happened.

If the official correctly signals 3 (or correctly does not signal) and the book records 2 (or 3), that's a bookkeeping error that can be corrected anytime (during the game).

If the official incorrectly signals 3 (or incorrectly fails to signal 3) and the book records what the official signalled, then it's a correctable error.

Thank you. Great clarification.

[Loudwhistle2]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Depends on what happened.

If the official correctly signals 3 (or correctly does not signal) and the book records 2 (or 3), that's a bookkeeping error that can be corrected anytime (during the game).

If the official incorrectly signals 3 (or incorrectly fails to signal 3) and the book records what the official signalled, then it's a correctable error.

Got it, thanks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the official correctly signals 3 (or correctly does not signal) and the book records 2 (or 3), that's a bookkeeping error that can be corrected anytime (during the game). If the official incorrectly signals 3 (or incorrectly fails to signal 3) and the book records what the official signaled, then it's a correctable error.

Lots of words to get there, but it sounds like you got there.