how many fouls is too many?

[Adam]

Two things that caught my eye.

You said you were calling fouls to send a message. Don't make a habit of that. Call the fouls to be sure but don't whistle contact just to send a message.

That brings me to the second point that caught my attention, your partner indicating there were some plays where you called a foul as the offense was getting around. Possession itself isn't a good indicator, but if the dribbler is getting around the defender, you possibly don't have a foul.

Your mention of "reaching" is another possible issue.

Just food for thought.

[Pantherdreams]

42 in a half seems like a lot, but without seeing the game I can't say for sure it is too many.

Things to consider:

- It is your job to call the game and manage the game not decide how it is played or send "messages". If there is llegal contact that is more then incidental and leading to adv/disadv. situation you call the foul. Don't worry about how teams are playing or "cleaning it up" just call the fouls you see.

- If both teams are pressing, both teams are probably experienced and capable of playing through pressure. In a JV game you might have some disparate levels of size and athleticism but if both teams are playing this hard, then they may have the capability to play through the contact you are finding excessive in a JV game. Be patient and call the game and play that is infront of you.

- Officiate the defense but don't hold them responsible for everything that happens. If a defender is putting his hands in and on/ forearms in and on the the offense doesn't like the contact so they stop or change their direction, that is very different (imo) then the offense getting directed or moved off their path by hands/forearms. The ball handler also has no expectation of time and space so there will be some contact and maintaining of space by both that will be required as the game moves on. If it is not clearly hurting the ball carriers ability to perform their current action or is not rough play you don't have to call that just because you don't like the action.

- We are not the arbitors of what is and is not good defense. You get to determine if it is legal or illegal and if there are fouls taking place. Just because positionally they do different things, or they have more active hands then we were coached or like to see doesn't make it wrong. You just have to call the game in front of you.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching. I was banging them everytime to send a message. Lost of displacement and redirecting by defenders with body hands, elbow forearms.

At half time my partner was saying that some of those fouls should be let go because the offensive player would of not lost the ball or would of gone pass the defender.

There were some officials in the locker room getting ready for the varsity game after and was telling us that we called way too many fouls. The guy said he was counting them. It seems the discussion was like let things go, calling to many fouls extends the game etc. Needless to say, 2nd half not that much pressing.

Maybe I am over thinking this but I get on the floor and if it is a long game I am there to call it no matter how many fouls or how long. I read somewhere in the NHFS rule book, that we are suppose to call the game regardless of score or situation in the game. After each game I work, I wont to come out of it that I call the perfect game.

Maroon,
A few thoughts:
1. HTBT is clearly true, BUT...
2. I think your partner had a good point in terms of "letting kids try to play through some things."
3. If you call the "perfect game", it will be the first.
4. #3 can be your BIGGEST enemy. EXPERIENCE will allow you to make a decision as to whether the "contact=a foul or contact is incidental and not a foul".
5. You indicated you were "sending a message, every time". Was the message being received?

As a previous poster asked, is there anything you could have done differently?

The game of basketball can be very difficult to officiate. As officials, we have to keep the game safe for the players. At the same time, we want the players to feel that they were playing the game of basketball and not a free throw competition. Sometimes, the players act as though they would really prefer a free throw competition. Did you call too many fouls? Without seeing the game, I cannot say for sure. At the same time, there are some questions you can ask yourself that can make you a better referee. As a fifth year official, you are experienced, but you will continue to get better over time -- if you are willing to review your performance after each game and make adjustments when (and only when) needed.

Good luck!!!

[Rich]

I will only say this:

I can't remember a single JV game I've watched in the last two years where I thought the officials didn't call enough fouls.

I can think of a few where the crew was calling as many as my partners and I would've called.

In all other occasions, there just wasn't good judgment on advantage/disadvantage, IMO, and the end result is more fouls than is needed to manage the game. Unfortunately, the coaches at the lower levels tend to get used to the game being called that way and expect it, too.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching. I was banging them everytime to send a message. Lost of displacement and redirecting by defenders with body hands, elbow forearms.

At half time my partner was saying that some of those fouls should be let go because the offensive player would of not lost the ball or would of gone pass the defender.

There were some officials in the locker room getting ready for the varsity game after and was telling us that we called way too many fouls. The guy said he was counting them. It seems the discussion was like let things go, calling to many fouls extends the game etc. Needless to say, 2nd half not that much pressing.

Maybe I am over thinking this but I get on the floor and if it is a long game I am there to call it no matter how many fouls or how long. I read somewhere in the NHFS rule book, that we are suppose to call the game regardless of score or situation in the game. After each game I work, I wont to come out of it that I call the perfect game.

I'm another in the "had to be there" camp but sometimes it happens. I had a GV game two years ago where we shot 80 FTs (!!!) and six girls fouled out. However, when I thought about it on the way home I didn't think we called anything that didn't need to be called since the girls were playing aggresively to the point of being rough. If kids were being displaced then you and your partner had to do something and it appears the players eventualy figured things out.

I agree with the "don't pay attention to the varsity guys" comment. They're concerned with getting home and they probably did the same thing when they were JV officials. If they gave you some feedback other than they were counting fouls then by all means listen. Telling you they were counting the fouls - which you and your partner could've done if you really wanted to - isn't constructive.

I also agree with the earlier comment: don't call fouls to "send a message." You're already sending a message when you call a foul: what that player did put his/her opponent at a disadvantage not intended by the rules.

All this being said, your partner had a point. Remember, even though these were JV players they're still in high school which means there's a certain amount of contact they should be able to deal with. You call the obvious of course, but you'll learn there are times you can let the play work itself out. Maybe A1 gets bumped a little out top but plays through it at gets to the hoop and scores. Play continues, A's coach is happy because his team got the two points and you've set a standard regarding what kind of contact will be allowed.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I agree with the "don't pay attention to the varsity guys" comment.

I agree with this, too. We just want to get started on time so we can be off the floor by the time the JV guys are getting in bed. The post-game beer doesn't drink itself.

Doesn't matter what we think anyway -- once the JV guys start calling fouls for merely breathing on the opponent, we get up and go to the locker room to slowly get dressed.

(Usually accompanied by one of us turning to the other(s) and saying, "I've seen enough of this (crap).")

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by maroonx

Calling too many fouls extends the game.

Lots of good reasons to pass on some fouls. This (above) is not one of them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Lots of good reasons to pass on some fouls contact. This (above) is not one of them.

There, all better now.

[MD Longhorn]

The only real issue I have is with "I was banging them every time to send a message". If they were fouls, they were fouls. (And based on what some of the others here said, maybe they weren't). No need for a motive. Call what you see.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The only real issue I have is with "I was banging them every time to send a message". If they were fouls, they were fouls. (And based on what some of the others here said, maybe they weren't). No need for a motive. Call what you see.

42 in a half is a lot of fouls. I'm not saying it's too many in this instance, but *others that were there did*.

(42 in 16 minutes means a foul every 22.85 seconds. That's a lot of fouls.)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich

42 in a half is a lot of fouls. I'm not saying it's too many in this instance, but *others that were there did*.

(42 in 16 minutes means a foul every 22.85 seconds. That's a lot of fouls.)

I don't disagree. Just saying I have a bigger issue with the admitted existence of a motive for calling the fouls.

[maroonx]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I don't disagree. Just saying I have a bigger issue with the admitted existence of a motive for calling the fouls.

only motive that the contact was illegal.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Rich

(42 in 16 minutes means a foul every 22.85 seconds. That's a lot of fouls.)

I don't know about other locations, but I don't believe we play 8 minute quarters at JV levels here (could be wrong though, been a while). Which, of course makes your point even more!

[rockyroad]

Quick questions for maroons...

Of those 42 fouls in the first half, how many did you call? How many did your partner call? Was it 50-50 or close to that? Or more like you called 30+ and he only had about 10 or so?

Just trying to find out a little more info on the "message" you were sending...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I don't know about other locations, but I don't believe we play 8 minute quarters at JV levels here (could be wrong though, been a while). Which, of course makes your point even more!

Didn't think of that -- we're about half and half. Thrills me when a school plays 7 minute quarters -- it's the only way the V game starts on time!

At 7 minute quarters, it's a foul every 20 seconds on the button.