Game ends with intentional foul

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Agreed, most do happen prior to a shot.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Logically, it almost HAS to have some time left on the clock. If the foul happened before the horn, you have to put time back on the clock (and as others have said, this is the right thing to do in interest of sportsmanship as well). If the horn happened before the foul, then it almost definitely happened before the shot as well, so you really have no shot or foul.

It's possible, but unlikely, that the foul occurred in that sliver of time that would have the clock actually running out.

Well, if it was prior to the shot, then the player is only getting 2 FTs.

And, without a monitor, there's no support for putting and arbitrary .3 seconds (or something) on the clock just because you saw the contact an instant before you heard the horn.

[BillyMac]

This thread got me thinking about intentional fouls near the end of the game. I know that an official can only charge intentional fouls, and technical fouls during a dead ball, and that other types of fouls during dead ball period should be ignored.

I'd like to twist around the original situation in this thread. Let's say that Team A is up by two points with a few seconds to go in the fourth period. For some unknown reason (kids do the darnedest things) A1 intentionally fouls B1 by bear hugging B1 (who is not in the act of shooting) as B1 is driving to the basket, but he's a little slow, and the beer hug contact is made a full second after the horn sounds to end the fourth period.

Is the foul charged? If so, is this a technical foul, or an intentional personal foul? It makes a difference because these fouls have different penalties that will dictate who shoots the free throws.

[refiator]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Well, if it was prior to the shot, then the player is only getting 2 FTs.

And, without a monitor, there's no support for putting and arbitrary .3 seconds (or something) on the clock just because you saw the contact an instant before you heard the horn.

If the foul wasn't prior to the horn, you wouldn't have a shooting foul, therefore there must be time left on the clock. This has been a POE in Georgia the past couple of years. In the case of a foul called on a last second shot, we do put time back on the clock (most use .3), and never shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by refiator

If the foul wasn't prior to the horn, you wouldn't have a shooting foul, therefore there must be time left on the clock. This has been a POE in Georgia the past couple of years. In the case of a foul called on a last second shot, we do put time back on the clock (most use .3), and never shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

Then GA is failing to follow the NFHS rule. See my post above.

[refiator]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Then GA is failing to follow the NFHS rule. See my post above.

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by refiator

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.

Not according to NFHS standards.

[refiator]

Of course, I am referring to a foul "on the shot"...not an undercut after the release.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by refiator

Of course, I am referring to a foul "on the shot"...not an undercut after the release.

After the release can still be "on the shot" or more accurately "in the act of shooting".
5-6-2 exception 3

3. If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as in 2-10, is rectified. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

[APG]

Originally Posted by refiator

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.

Except you can have a foul if the sequence is:

Shot is released before the horn
Horn
Airborne shooter is

There's no rule basis or interpretation that should add time back on the clock.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by refiator

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.

See 5.6.2G (last year's book) for an example of the play we are discussing where time is NOT put back on the clock.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

See 5.6.2G (last year's book) for an example of the play we are discussing where time is NOT put back on the clock.

This year's book also.

5.6.2 SITUATION G:

The score is tied when A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and the try is unsuccessful. Playing time for the fourth quarter expires while the ball is in flight. No players are allowed along the lane. A1's first free-throw attempt is *successful. Immediately following the made free throw the occupants of the Team A bench rush onto the court and a mini celebration takes place.

RULING: The *second free throw is not required. No penalty unless the celebration or any act is unsporting and a foul is charged to Team A before the final score has been approved. (5-6-2 Exception 3)

[refiator]

Here is the scenario as posed on our exam study guide this year. Let me clear up any confusion earlier. I don't think I made it clear when the horn sounded in relation to the whistle.......

"If time runs out and the horn sounds immediately after the official blows his/her whistle to indicate a shooting foul, the free throw shooter shall attempt the resulting free throws with no time remaining on the game clock and no players occupying the lane spaces. (FALSE)"

In this case, we have been instructed to put time back on the clock (.3 is typically suggested)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by refiator

If the foul wasn't prior to the horn, you wouldn't have a shooting foul, therefore there must be time left on the clock. This has been a POE in Georgia the past couple of years. In the case of a foul called on a last second shot, we do put time back on the clock (most use .3), and never shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

1) I think you can have a shooting foul after the horn sounds.

2) GA can do what it wants, of course, but recognize that it's not the rule and not what is used in most of the rest of the country.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) I think you can have a shooting foul after the horn sounds.

2) GA can do what it wants, of course, but recognize that it's not the rule and not what is used in most of the rest of the country.

Agree.

You may not be able to have a foul on the player in the act of shooting after the horn because the ball would be dead at the horn and there would be no shot since the ball was not released before the horn. Howeer, you can have a foul on the airborne shooter after the horn (ball was released prior to the horn).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree.

You may not be able to have a foul on the player in the act of shooting after the horn because the ball would be dead at the horn and there would be no shot since the ball was not released before the horn. Howeer, you can have a foul on the airborne shooter after the horn (ball was released prior to the horn).

You could also have a flagrant or intentional foul if the shooter lands and then gets run over while the shot is still in the air.

Technically, you could also have a common foul (and even a bonus ft situation).