Game ends with intentional foul

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Agreed, most do happen prior to a shot.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Logically, it almost HAS to have some time left on the clock. If the foul happened before the horn, you have to put time back on the clock (and as others have said, this is the right thing to do in interest of sportsmanship as well). If the horn happened before the foul, then it almost definitely happened before the shot as well, so you really have no shot or foul.

It's possible, but unlikely, that the foul occurred in that sliver of time that would have the clock actually running out.

Well, if it was prior to the shot, then the player is only getting 2 FTs.

And, without a monitor, there's no support for putting and arbitrary .3 seconds (or something) on the clock just because you saw the contact an instant before you heard the horn.

[BillyMac]

This thread got me thinking about intentional fouls near the end of the game. I know that an official can only charge intentional fouls, and technical fouls during a dead ball, and that other types of fouls during dead ball period should be ignored.

I'd like to twist around the original situation in this thread. Let's say that Team A is up by two points with a few seconds to go in the fourth period. For some unknown reason (kids do the darnedest things) A1 intentionally fouls B1 by bear hugging B1 (who is not in the act of shooting) as B1 is driving to the basket, but he's a little slow, and the beer hug contact is made a full second after the horn sounds to end the fourth period.

Is the foul charged? If so, is this a technical foul, or an intentional personal foul? It makes a difference because these fouls have different penalties that will dictate who shoots the free throws.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I should have added to my previous response that here I would be writing a "special report" to the state with the information I found out after the fact. the sate might be imposing additional penalties.

Bob:

Loners4me stated that he "learned coach told them to intentionally foul". I am going to presume that this was information that came from a third source. If that is that case, as much I would love to punish the coach if he really did order such conduct, BUT I would not report such conduct of the coach unless I could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that that coach really did give such an order. We need to remind our young officials that their game reports should to quote Joe Friday: "Just the facts, ma'am."

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Logically, it almost HAS to have some time left on the clock. If the foul happened before the horn, you have to put time back on the clock (and as others have said, this is the right thing to do in interest of sportsmanship as well). If the horn happened before the foul, then it almost definitely happened before the shot as well, so you really have no shot or foul.

It's possible, but unlikely, that the foul occurred in that sliver of time that would have the clock actually running out.

Don't confuse NFHS and NCAA rules!
If this is an NCAA game with a monitor, the official will restore the time from when the contact occurred. However, under NFHS rules the official can only restore what was seen once the whistle blows and the timer should by rule have stopped the clock.
So if the calling official is slow on the whistle, there is a high probability that the period will end with the FTs.

[refiator]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Well, if it was prior to the shot, then the player is only getting 2 FTs.

And, without a monitor, there's no support for putting and arbitrary .3 seconds (or something) on the clock just because you saw the contact an instant before you heard the horn.

If the foul wasn't prior to the horn, you wouldn't have a shooting foul, therefore there must be time left on the clock. This has been a POE in Georgia the past couple of years. In the case of a foul called on a last second shot, we do put time back on the clock (most use .3), and never shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

[Fed2You]

Anyone seen the whistles now-a-days with the microchip in them that stops the clock immediately on the sound of the whistle? Honig's has them, but they require more hardware (and software?) by the venue hosting the contest. VERY interesting. I would bet it'll be standard equipment in a few years. Can't believe the NBA or NCAA hasn't progressed to this technology.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Fed2You

Anyone seen the whistles now-a-days with the microchip in them that stops the clock immediately on the sound of the whistle? Honig's has them, but they require more hardware (and software?) by the venue hosting the contest. VERY interesting. I would bet it'll be standard equipment in a few years. Can't believe the NBA or NCAA hasn't progressed to this technology.

Not sure about the NBA but the NCAA has...

[Fed2You]

It would eliminate a lot of the above "what if's". There'd be little to no question about "time left on the clock" or "by the time you SAW the foul and then looked up, how much time was there?" Knaw mean? lol

[refiator]

Originally Posted by Fed2You

Anyone seen the whistles now-a-days with the microchip in them that stops the clock immediately on the sound of the whistle? Honig's has them, but they require more hardware (and software?) by the venue hosting the contest. VERY interesting. I would bet it'll be standard equipment in a few years. Can't believe the NBA or NCAA hasn't progressed to this technology.

No, but that's pretty cool. Would love to see the technology make it to the HS level, but, at least in these parts, I'm not sure we'll ever even see a shot clock mandated due to the cost. It would take a lot of guesswork out of the equation.

[Adam]

It's called PTS, used widely in college. Don't expect it soon in high school.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Fed2You

Anyone seen the whistles now-a-days with the microchip in them that stops the clock immediately on the sound of the whistle? Honig's has them, but they require more hardware (and software?) by the venue hosting the contest. VERY interesting. I would bet it'll be standard equipment in a few years. Can't believe the NBA or NCAA hasn't progressed to this technology.

The NBA uses PTS for every game. Most of the major conferences use it as well but it isn't used for the NCAA tournament. By the way the technology is call precision time system.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by refiator

If the foul wasn't prior to the horn, you wouldn't have a shooting foul, therefore there must be time left on the clock. This has been a POE in Georgia the past couple of years. In the case of a foul called on a last second shot, we do put time back on the clock (most use .3), and never shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

Then GA is failing to follow the NFHS rule. See my post above.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by refiator

If the foul wasn't prior to the horn, you wouldn't have a shooting foul, therefore there must be time left on the clock. This has been a POE in Georgia the past couple of years. In the case of a foul called on a last second shot, we do put time back on the clock (most use .3), and never shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

1) I think you can have a shooting foul after the horn sounds.

2) GA can do what it wants, of course, but recognize that it's not the rule and not what is used in most of the rest of the country.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) I think you can have a shooting foul after the horn sounds.

2) GA can do what it wants, of course, but recognize that it's not the rule and not what is used in most of the rest of the country.

Agree.

You may not be able to have a foul on the player in the act of shooting after the horn because the ball would be dead at the horn and there would be no shot since the ball was not released before the horn. Howeer, you can have a foul on the airborne shooter after the horn (ball was released prior to the horn).

[refiator]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Then GA is failing to follow the NFHS rule. See my post above.

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.